[Signing] Phaneuf signs 7yr x $7mil contract extension

[Erick Estrada]

Will be interesting to see Bouwmeester's value if this is the type of money Phaneuf is going to get. Both defenseman were under appreciated by Flames fans.

[mrdonkey]

Originally Posted by puckluck2

He's about to sign a contract worth $50 million. Somebody is over rating him.

Moneybags Nonis doesn't count. Remember this is the same guy who gave those outrageous contracts to Bozak and Clarkson.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Will be interesting to see Bouwmeester's value if this is the type of money Phaneuf is going to get. Both defenseman were under appreciated by Flames fans.

He's already been extended by the Blues for another 5 years @ $5.4 million per......a much better deal than Dion's.

[dammage79]

He only got a 400k a year raise. The term is what is stupid. But he is the Captain.

[GettinIggyWithIt]

Originally Posted by moon

I would say that for two years he has been talked about as the most overrated guy kind of shows that he is no longer overrated. If everyone talks about it then how is he overrated? If he is constantly voted overrated then doesn't that show that people realize what he is and aren't overrating him?

I listen to Prime Time Sports everyday and the TO media and fan base crap all over him. Flames fans crap all over him since he left. Vancouver and Edmonton fans hate him and crap on him from his time here. I imagine Sens, Jets and Canadians fans hate him if for no other reason then he is the Captain of the Leafs.

I just am wondering who is overrating him now? If he is so overrated who is it that is overrating him, because it isn't the Canadian media, isn't Canadian fans and I haven't seen/heard him plastered all over ESPN either.

Ummm...no. Overrating means to rate or appraise too highly. Clearly there are people who feel that others are rating or appraising Phaneuf too highly. As long as the people overrating Phaneuf exist, then he can still be considered overrated by others. It's not that hard to figure out. This doesn't mean that there won't be people who think he's overrated, or that being considered overrated all of a sudden means that you are not...

For example if the argument is that Phaneuf is worth 7-7.5 million, and someone believes he is not worth that amount, then he would be considered overrated by that person. You obviously believe he is worth that amount, so you don't think he is overrated. Others would disagree and say you are overrating him. It's pretty simple really.

[moon]

Originally Posted by GettinIggyWithIt

Ummm...no. Overrating means to rate or appraise too highly. Clearly there are people who feel that others are rating or appraising Phaneuf too highly. As long as the people overrating Phaneuf exist, then he can still be considered overrated by others. It's not that hard to figure out. This doesn't mean that there won't be people who think he's overrated, or that being considered overrated all of a sudden means that you are not...

But if the majority of people think he is overrated then who is overrating him? That is my point. If all it takes is one person to overrate someone then all NHLers are overrated.

From what I have seen, heard, read most people think he is a decent offensive defenseman who can play big minutes and is not at the elite level but somewhere in the next group below that. Outside of the the majority of opinions have been that he sucks. That doesn't seem to be overrating him at all.

I haven't heard/seen anyone say he is one of the top 20 defensemen in the league and I am one of the biggest Phaneuf supporter/fans around. To me that is what it would take to say he is overrated.

For example if the argument is that Phaneuf is worth 7-7.5 million, and someone believes he is not worth that amount, then he would be considered overrated by that person. You obviously believe he is worth that amount, so you don't think he is overrated. Others would disagree and say you are overrating him. It's pretty simple really.

I think that would be an example of him being overpaid not overrated. I think Gomez was overpaid for a long time but he was properly rated because people thought he sucked.

I don't think he is worth that amount but think that is the going rate for guys like him right now and he, like many other FA's, are getting overpaid.

[FlamesAllTheWay]

Originally Posted by moon

I just am wondering who is overrating him now? If he is so overrated who is it that is overrating him, because it isn't the Canadian media, isn't Canadian fans and I haven't seen/heard him plastered all over ESPN either.

I would say the Leafs organization consistently overrates him. By naming him Captain early on, generally treating him as a number 1 franchise defenceman even though he's shown he is not, and now by this new rumoured deal. I believe 7 million/season over 7 years would put him amongst the top 10 highest paid D in the league. Has he really done that much in Toronto to warrant being the cornerstone of the franchise for the next 7 years? Is he even a top 10 D? 20?

Toronto gave him the reigns and awhile back when it looked like he might turn into a franchise calibre D. To date he's been good, but not anything spectacular. The Leafs as a whole have one first round playoff exit to show for it, in which Phaneuf was probably average at best. Maybe things will change but as of now there's really now reason to think they will. And yet the organization still wants to make him the centrepiece of the team going forward.

His best days are still his first few seasons in Calgary when he was a top 4 D man and teams were still figuring him out. Yet I think amongst some the perception that he's a 50 pt, 15 goal, plus player still lingers. His game regressed once he became "the guy" IMO.

[Red John]

Originally Posted by moon

With the way they built their team there really is much other options.

They don't re-sign Phaneuf and Cody Franson is their top guy with little to no better options in UFA this off-season and almost impossible to trade for a top pairing defenseman especially with the assets they have.

Feel free to point out a better option for them than a useless one line throw away comment.

It wasn't a throw-away comment - you made it sound that their options were to keep Phaneuf and Kessel or to build around Kadri and Franson and that's it. That's lazy and you needed to be called on it.

Another option would have been to trade Phaneuf and Kessel for big returns. Even as pending UFAs they would fetch a pretty penny - you could build around those returns if they were hockey trades (for other stars) or the more likely option the blue chip prospects and 1st round picks you'd get back.

Still another option would be to trade Phaneuf/Kessel for picks/prospects then use the resulting cap space to make a move for some other top player. As you see with guys like Seguin star players are sometimes up for trade in the off-season for whatever reason and there would be a chance to replace their current franchise players (both overrated and not all-around players) with better ones.

You don't just keep your best players and pay them ridiculous coin to be your core just because you have no other option. That's what Winnipeg has done - and now they're going to be stuck in no-mans land for years because their best players are inferior to other teams best players.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Red John

It wasn't a throw-away comment - you made it sound that their options were to keep Phaneuf and Kessel or to build around Kadri and Franson and that's it. That's lazy and you needed to be called on it.

These signings aren't stopping them from winning the Cup. It is the support players around them. You made it sound like they were. Its lazy and you need to be called out on it.

Another option would have been to trade Phaneuf and Kessel for big returns. Even as pending UFAs they would fetch a pretty penny - you could build around those returns if they were hockey trades (for other stars) or the more likely option the blue chip prospects and 1st round picks you'd get back.

I think that makes sense if they hadn't already had big money wrapped up in Clarkson.

I think it is a tougher way to go because they just added pieces to help them compete and to now turn around and rebuild again isn't going to go over well. I think it may be the right thing to do but tough and likely something Nonis doesn't see through to the end.

I don't think they would get blue chips or stars back in those deals but first and 2nd tier prospects.

Still another option would be to trade Phaneuf/Kessel for picks/prospects then use the resulting cap space to make a move for some other top player. As you see with guys like Seguin star players are sometimes up for trade in the off-season for whatever reason and there would be a chance to replace their current franchise players (both overrated and not all-around players) with better ones.

I don't see that happening and Seguin is a borderline star now and certainly wasn't when dealt. But they could take that approach, pretty risky though if you ask me and seems likely to end up in the same place with worse players than Phaneuf and Kessel and the same decision on signing them in a year of 2 time.

You don't just keep your best players and pay them ridiculous coin to be your core just because you have no other option. That's what Winnipeg has done - and now they're going to be stuck in no-mans land for years because their best players are inferior to other teams best players.

Kessel and Phaneuf are much better than anything Winnipeg has but do agree with the premise which is why I first said tough choice for the Leafs as it does seem like too much for them to commit to him but they have nobody close to replacing him and little to no options outside the team to do it.

[Red John]

Originally Posted by moon

These signings aren't stopping them from winning the Cup. It is the support players around them. You made it sound like they were. Its lazy and you need to be called out on it.

That isn't lazy, it's an opinion. Depth matters but in the playoffs generally if your top offensive player and No. 1 dman are inferior to that of most the other teams you aren't going to win anything.

Nice try though. The rest of your post is pretty well thought out and agreed that Kessel and Phaneuf are probably better than Winnipeg's core though that isn't saying much.

[bubbsy]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

He's already been extended by the Blues for another 5 years @ $5.4 million per......a much better deal than Dion's.

that bouwmeester deal is pretty great for the blues. I think bouwmeester was smart in taking the necessary discount to play on a team and in a role that suits him very very well.

I think the leafs have to make this deal. the numbers aren't that bad considering where the cap projections are over the term being discussed.

It would have been awesome if he took bouwmeester type salary, as it would have allowed the leafs to build a stronger defense around him, rather than his salary being the only justification for viewing him as a #1 dman, which he is not.

[Frank MetaMusil]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Will be interesting to see Bouwmeester's value if this is the type of money Phaneuf is going to get. Both defenseman were under appreciated by Flames fans.

Phaneuf is definitely the better player.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Frank MetaMusil

Phaneuf is definitely the better player.

Definitely?

Definitely?

It's really definite?

Bouwmeester has been a top 5 dman in the league this year.

[bubbsy]

ya, i'd be a little hesitant on making that statement (phaneuf > bouwmeester).

That being said, bouwmeester is playing with a much (MUCH) better partner, with a better team/system around him.

[Frank MetaMusil]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Definitely?

Definitely?

It's really definite?

Bouwmeester has been a top 5 dman in the league this year.

Sure, Bouwmeester has been better this year. For 36 games. I can't argue that.

[cam_wmh]

Originally Posted by browna

<snip> he's likely the best defenceman the Leafs have had in a couple decades.<snip>

I think Al Iafrate, Larry Murphy, & Tomas Kaberle were better than tHe Dion.

On par wth Bryan McCabe.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Frank MetaMusil

Sure, Bouwmeester has been better this year. For 36 games. I can't argue that.

And last year.

[timbit]

Could there be two more diametrically opposed personalities and styles of playing defence than Bouwmeester and Phaneuf?

Bouwmeester is more likely to make a valuable contribution to a Stanley Cup team than Phaneuf .

Hockey sense and reliability.

[strombad]

Originally Posted by nik-

And last year.

And, quite frankly, they were incredibly comparable the three years prior to that.

Phaneuf is certainly no better than Bouw, they just play different games. If you value big checks, a bit more "edge", and a hard shot, Dion is your guy.
If you value positional play, exceptional skating ability, and great awareness, Bouw is your guy.

If you're Toronto, you take what you value, overvalue it, and end up spending 20-30% more than you should on pretty much every player you try to lock down.
Money! Money for EVERYONE!

[Sylvanfan]

Phaneuf is one of the guys in the cap era who made sure he got paid as much as he could. Granted where the cap is going, a team could have paid him 8 per year and been able to handle it.