Hartley very impressed with Joe Colborne

[moon]

Originally Posted by puckluck2

They're asking Colborne to be useless on the pp, not score and play like a 130 pound 5'5 player?

Wasn't Backlund benched for not contributing offensively? Colborne doesn't contribute much on both ends of the ice but he has gotten better in the defensive end since the start of the year where he was awful.

Again the whole PP sucks. Seems silly to blame a guy that isn't the 7th most played forward for not getting points when nobody is getting points and the guys getting the most time have pathetic totals.

He contributes fine on the defensive end and isn't asked to score a ton offensively but still is doing that at a similar pace to Backlund so not sure why you are whining about that.

Not sure what to say about the garbage 5'5 130 lbs player. He is much more physical and effective than Backlund (not saying much there) so odd to bring physical play up when talking about how Backlund has supposedly been better.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by puckluck2

I care. I'd understand if he was racking up points and playing extremely well but he's playing average and not racking up points. If that makes Hartley "real impressed" with Colborne then it's no wonder he's coached a bottom 5 defensive team 2 years running.

Don't worry, Hartley isn't playing favourites

And in Colorado? Not to spoil a good-news story, but the lanky centre struggled mightily against the Avalanche, seeing only 8:52 of icetime after averaging 18-plus minutes on the first three stops of the week-long sojourn.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by puckluck2

They're asking Colborne to be useless on the pp, not score and play like a 130 pound 5'5 player?

Wasn't Backlund benched for not contributing offensively? Colborne doesn't contribute much on both ends of the ice but he has gotten better in the defensive end since the start of the year where he was awful.

Sorry, but this is getting stupid.

Question, do you expect more from Backlund at this point or Colborne? I expect more out of Backlund myself. He's the better prospect at this point and far more experienced at the NHL level. Therefore, I suspect the coach also expects more out of Backlund. Which means, in order to impress the coach at this point, Backlund likely has to do a hell of a lot more than Colborne to earn praise.

This is mind blowing to me. Does everyone in here work in a union environment or something were everything has to be equal and everyone is evaluated with the same yard stick? Does no one work in a pay for performance culture where employees have different goals and yard sticks they are measured against. I realize NHL players are unionized, but for the most part with their clubs, it's a pay for performance culture.

Backlund has a much different set of expectations to meet than Colborne right now, and rightfully so. When he doesn't meet the goals set out for him, he gets in the dog house. Backlands performance will be evaluated individually, it is not evaluated against Colborne or any other Flame for that matter. It only matters what was/ is expected of him and how's he's doing relative to that baseline.

As Colborne gets better, believe me, his baseline is also going up, and it will take more and more to impress the coach.

But comparing what Backlund, Sven or Colborne are doing in regards to each other is a futile exercise, because it doesn't matter. Each player has a different set of skills and long term potential. The coach will be holding each one accountable to those individual set of circumstances, not as how they doe with each other. Doesn't mean the coach might not use examples from one to show the other to make a point, but overall how each player does in comparison is irrelevant.

[kn]

When he was drafted, he was being compare to Jumbo Joe. It's clear he's nowhere near that level of player. I think the organization and fans would be thrilled if he became a Joel Otto type center, taking key draws and shutting down the 'Jumbo Joes' of the opposition.

[killer_carlson]

Joel Otto would be a $6 million dollar hockey player if he played today.

Big, tough, good skating checking center who is the best faceoff man in hockey. The first guy to take on the Messier physical challenge and hold his own game after game. That's a tough comparison as well.

I would love it if Colborne could turn into Otto. He has to decide to get exponentially more physical out there though.

[TheDebaser]

Originally Posted by mikeecho

This whole year has been about making comments like this and IMHO it's in response to the past history of this team. He's changing the culture and has tried to discuss at every chance. In one of the pre game shows a while back a player (I think it was Gio) talked about how Hartley came in at the beginning of the year and told the team that all the thrones had been washed away with the flood. That's pretty strong and I think he'll reinforce that kind of message all year.

So it would seem that the flames are engaged in some sort of battle to claim the throne for themselves. A sort of throne game?

Victories are good, losses are bad, but both are ultimately meaningless. Only the climb is real. Ice time is all that matters.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by puckluck2

7th in pp time is pretty good but 0 points to show for it doesn't scream real impressive to me.

7th among forwards...


12th on the team over all in PP TOI PG

Hardly "ample PP time"

[Flames Draft Watcher]

King troll at it again. How everyone doesn't have this kid on ignore is beyond me.

[H2SO4(aq)]

Im hoping he can become our version of Dave Bolland.

[TurnedTheCorner]

I must miss what Hartley sees. Which is good, he's a pro coach and I'm just a fan. I'm not too hung up on what Colborne does this year. He's a project IMO, and I don't think we'll see where he slots in or what kind of player he'll be for a long time.

I like his size and that he goes to the front.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by TurnedTheCorner

I like his size and that he goes to the front.

But he doesn't do much with his size and his going to the front doesn't seem to produce many results.

IMO he's not doing enough with all the extra minutes he's been gifted to warrant continuing to get them. I don't dislike Joe Colborne I just think that he's getting more minutes then he ought to be getting and that it's hurting the teams performance.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Parallex

But he doesn't do much with his size and his going to the front doesn't seem to produce many results.

IMO he's not doing enough with all the extra minutes he's been gifted to warrant continuing to get them. I don't dislike Joe Colborne I just think that he's getting more minutes then he ought to be getting and that it's hurting the teams performance.

He got 8 mins last game so hard to blame him last game.

He played well and got some extra minutes for about 4 maybe 5 games and then when his play dropped (not nearly as bad as some have claimed) he was reduced back down to lesser minutes.

I am far from a fan of Hartley and would love to see him gone but not sure what the exact problem is here. Colborne played well and with limited center options his was given minutes. Now his play dropped and his ice time was cut. Backlund was pretty weak early on and he sat, he had some chemistry with Hudler/Cammy and he got a lot more minutes. That seems pretty much how the season should go and how guys like Colborne and Backlund should be handled.

[TurnedTheCorner]

Originally Posted by Parallex

But he doesn't do much with his size and his going to the front doesn't seem to produce many results.

IMO he's not doing enough with all the extra minutes he's been gifted to warrant continuing to get them. I don't dislike Joe Colborne I just think that he's getting more minutes then he ought to be getting and that it's hurting the teams performance.

I think he needs to work on his consistency, like any young player. I recall a few goals occurring from screens and traffic he brought to the front with him.

Like I said, a project. The whole team this year is a project. I'd like the results to be better, but it's not going to happen over night.

[timbit]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

Sorry, but this is getting stupid.

Question, do you expect more from Backlund at this point or Colborne? I expect more out of Backlund myself. He's the better prospect at this point and far more experienced at the NHL level. Therefore, I suspect the coach also expects more out of Backlund. Which means, in order to impress the coach at this point, Backlund likely has to do a hell of a lot more than Colborne to earn praise.

This is mind blowing to me. Does everyone in here work in a union environment or something were everything has to be equal and everyone is evaluated with the same yard stick? Does no one work in a pay for performance culture where employees have different goals and yard sticks they are measured against. I realize NHL players are unionized, but for the most part with their clubs, it's a pay for performance culture.

Backlund has a much different set of expectations to meet than Colborne right now, and rightfully so. When he doesn't meet the goals set out for him, he gets in the dog house. Backlands performance will be evaluated individually, it is not evaluated against Colborne or any other Flame for that matter. It only matters what was/ is expected of him and how's he's doing relative to that baseline.

As Colborne gets better, believe me, his baseline is also going up, and it will take more and more to impress the coach.

But comparing what Backlund, Sven or Colborne are doing in regards to each other is a futile exercise, because it doesn't matter. Each player has a different set of skills and long term potential. The coach will be holding each one accountable to those individual set of circumstances, not as how they doe with each other. Doesn't mean the coach might not use examples from one to show the other to make a point, but overall how each player does in comparison is irrelevant.

IMO, this post best clarifies and explains how Hartley is committed to changing the culture of the Flames and serving the DEVELOPING players' needs, not wants, best.

Each player has a set of expectations, based on skill set, role, upside, etc.

IMO, the coaches are telling and showing them how they can meet their individual expectations.

Bottom line, they are being evaluated and compared to the best they have to offer...nobody else.

They buy in by moving towards the mandate with commitment and passion and get rewarded or they don't play /their minutes are reduced.

A lot of the veteran role players that some posters are bitter about will be long gone sooner rather than later. Some are filling a temporary niche and some are contractually here til their contracts are done.

IMO, he is trying to build a championship culture and ensure that 4 years from now, these young players are moving in the right direction towards being role models and leaders on a real contending team.

It is a major part of the rebuilding and development process.

Their mettle is being tested. Will be interesting to see how they respond.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by moon

He got 8 mins last game so hard to blame him last game.

And I don't, I don't "blame" him for any game (I don't really blame any one skater for any result, team game and all that) it's just that I don't think he warrants the TOI he get's.

He been granted remarkably easy minutes (Lopsided starts in favor of the offensive zone, decent PP time, virtually no PK time, quality line-mates) and he doesn't do much with it. The only forward who get's remotely similar deployment is Monahan... and Monahan A: is a 18/19 year old first year pro and B: actually does something with it.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Parallex

And I don't, I don't "blame" him for any game (I don't really blame any one skater for any result, team game and all that) it's just that I don't think he warrants the TOI he get's.

He been granted remarkably easy minutes (Lopsided starts in favor of the offensive zone, decent PP time, virtually no PK time, quality line-mates) and he doesn't do much with it. The only forward who get's remotely similar deployment is Monahan... and Monahan A: is a 18/19 year old first year pro and B: actually does something with it.

Well the PP time has been addressed and if you think that 7th amongst forwards and an average of 5 seconds more than Backlund is decent I am not sure what to say.

He has played a lot with Jackman and McGrattan early on and isn't playing with world beaters now so not really sure about the linemates comment.

He has benefitted from Stajan being hurt and the other centers, outside of Monahan, not really doing anything to warrant him not playing ahead of them.

He played well and got minutes, he play poorly and didn't seems to me that he did warrant those minutes, at least more than anyone else on the team.

He has outplayed Backlund, not really taken any minutes from Monahan and had his minutes reduced in games that Stajan has played so I am not really sure where the anger/frustration/whatever it is from fans is coming from. Who exactly should be playing in the 8 minutes that he played last game? Who should have gotten the minutes he did in the very short 4 game stretch where he had outplayed Backlund and got rewarded for good play?

[mustache ride]

Hartley is just a place holder until next year anyway. He is on his way to being the worst coach in Flames history.

[Drury18]

Originally Posted by mustache ride

Hartley is just a place holder until next year anyway. He is on his way to being the worst coach in Flames history.

He's got a long way to go to sink to the level of Greg Gilbert. Long way.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by mustache ride

Hartley is just a place holder until next year anyway. He is on his way to being the worst coach in Flames history.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by moon

Well the PP time has been addressed and if you think that 7th amongst forwards and an average of 5 seconds more than Backlund is decent I am not sure what to say.

It is decent, especially when you consider that two of the folk above him are currently injured.

Originally Posted by moon

He has played a lot with Jackman and McGrattan early on and isn't playing with world beaters now so not really sure about the linemates comment.

Who do you think he's been playing with since his icetime got elevated?

Originally Posted by moon

He has benefitted from Stajan being hurt and the other centers, outside of Monahan, not really doing anything to warrant him not playing ahead of them.

Wait... so you think the default should be him playing ahead of other? Seems strange

Originally Posted by moon

He played well and got minutes

He played ok and got minutes. I didn't see anything from him that in my mind forced the coach to elevate his minutes.

Originally Posted by moon

he play poorly and didn't seems to me that he did warrant those minutes, at least more than anyone else on the team.

I really don't know what this means.

Originally Posted by moon

He has outplayed Backlund,

Really really really disagree. IMO Backlund has been easily the superior player all season long.

Originally Posted by moon

Who exactly should be playing in the 8 minutes that he played last game?

It's not about just the last game. It's about the body of work as a whole and particularly the body of work since he got his ice-time initially elevated.