Would you strike

[Resolute 14]

Originally posted by Winsor_Pilates@Jul 21 2005, 10:56 PM
My dad has worked for Telus/AGT for longer than I've been alive, and everything that he has told me sounds like what Firefly has wrote.
From what I've been told, this strike is really headed by the BC employees, and Alberta staff are pretty much being mislead and dragged into it. The union was at fault for not negotiating in four years, and dispite what their leaders say, they will likely end up with a much worse deal after all of this done than if they had negotiated in the first place.
Funny that Firefly compared it the The NHLPA, becuase that's the first thing that I thought of too.

That was my impression of this strike as well. Telus was under CBA's that were designed to help a private corporation succeed in the buisnessplace. BCTel's CBA's were negotiated with a crown corporation, and wasnt in line with private industry. The moment the union said it would only negotiate off the basis of the old BCTel agreements, this course of action was inevitable.

Time for this union to step into the real world: You arent negotiating against the government anymore. You are negotiating against a buisness that actually cares about profits and losses.

It's especially funny, becuase apparently the deal Telus has imposed is similar to a deal that this very same union negotiated with Shaw, yet this very same union will not consider it.

[dustygoon]

Originally posted by Vulcan@Jul 22 2005, 08:26 AM
Myself, I would think very carefully about being one of the first crossing a picket line. You may think of it as just a another dispute but the people on the line may take it as a personal insult which jeopardizes their way of life. Ask yourself if you plan to stay with Telus and if you do, how will you relate to your fellow employs when this is over. If you hope to go into management maybe your crossing will build up browny points but if this is just a temporary job you are on your own. I would at least wait until you know which way the wind is blowing before crossing.

I would not want to be around people who support that strike in the first place. I think they are dim for being mislead or opportunistic and trying to hold on to benefits that are out of line with what is fair.

Labour relations board has motioned in FAVOUR of Telus. The union has refused to negotiate since 2000 because they know their work arrangement is more than equitable.

Those on the picket lines who try to stop others from working should think twice about what their union leaders are telling them.

[FireFly]

Originally posted by Vulcan@Jul 22 2005, 02:26 AM
Myself, I would think very carefully about being one of the first crossing a picket line. You may think of it as just a another dispute but the people on the line may take it as a personal insult which jeopardizes their way of life. Ask yourself if you plan to stay with Telus and if you do, how will you relate to your fellow employs when this is over. If you hope to go into management maybe your crossing will build up browny points but if this is just a temporary job you are on your own. I would at least wait until you know which way the wind is blowing before crossing.

Well, I may or may not stick around, and if I do, I'll be going into management here, who are not union. Maybe it'll help me win brownie points, maybe not. I don't really care. Either way, I don't agree with the union, so I'm not going to stand by and watch the picket, which in essence is supporting the union.

I'm not one of the first to cross, apparently many are. Although today I think I was the first person in the building....

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

Originally posted by Clarkey@Jul 21 2005, 10:58 PM
Maybe 100 people lost their jobs because they tried to collude to fata over Walmart.

I hate Walmart but I applauded what they did in Quebec.

100 people wanted health care coverage. I can't believe that you think that there is a huge problem with this. Right now Walmart is the equivant of the coal mine, they treat their employees like crap, the way they do business is downright criminal at times, and well they do all this in order to make a quick buck.

If organizing and attempting to get health care coverage for their families is equiable to fataing Walmart over I really question your perceptions. I guess those people only work at Walmart so they shouldn't be granted the ability to organize and the ability to ask for health care coverage.

I can't understand why you would side with the billionaire employers over the employees who are living under the poverty line.

[moon]

Originally posted by Mean Mr. Mustard+Jul 22 2005, 10:20 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Mean Mr. Mustard @ Jul 22 2005, 10:20 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Clarkey@Jul 21 2005, 10:58 PM
Maybe 100 people lost their jobs because they tried to collude to fata over Walmart.

I hate Walmart but I applauded what they did in Quebec.

100 people wanted health care coverage. I can't believe that you think that there is a huge problem with this. Right now Walmart is the equivant of the coal mine, they treat their employees like crap, the way they do business is downright criminal at times, and well they do all this in order to make a quick buck.

If organizing and attempting to get health care coverage for their families is equiable to fataing Walmart over I really question your perceptions. I guess those people only work at Walmart so they shouldn't be granted the ability to organize and the ability to ask for health care coverage.

I can't understand why you would side with the billionaire employers over the employees who are living under the poverty line. [/b][/quote]
If it is so bad then don't work there.

Walmart doesn't have unions so I have no problem with them not wanting to have some store in Quebec trying to get crap that the company doesn't give out.

[peter12]

Originally posted by moon+Jul 22 2005, 12:07 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (moon @ Jul 22 2005, 12:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

100 people wanted health care coverage. I can't believe that you think that there is a huge problem with this. Right now Walmart is the equivant of the coal mine, they treat their employees like crap, the way they do business is downright criminal at times, and well they do all this in order to make a quick buck.

If organizing and attempting to get health care coverage for their families is equiable to fataing Walmart over I really question your perceptions. I guess those people only work at Walmart so they shouldn't be granted the ability to organize and the ability to ask for health care coverage.

I can't understand why you would side with the billionaire employers over the employees who are living under the poverty line.

If it is so bad then don't work there.

Walmart doesn't have unions so I have no problem with them not wanting to have some store in Quebec trying to get crap that the company doesn't give out. [/b][/quote]
Easier said then done...

Imagine having a high school education and a family to raise... not too many options there.

All Wal-mart CEOs will burn in hell.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally posted by FireFly+Jul 21 2005, 11:02 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (FireFly @ Jul 21 2005, 11:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I'm so glad your dad feels the same way! Is he crossing too? It's really too bad that BC is so much bigger than we are... I totally wish we could take them down in a vote.[/b]

He's in Mangement now, so not part of the union.

<!--QuoteBegin-Vulcan
Myself, I would think very carefully about being one of the first crossing a picket line. You may think of it as just a another dispute but the people on the line may take it as a personal insult which jeopardizes their way of life. Ask yourself if you plan to stay with Telus and if you do, how will you relate to your fellow employs when this is over. If you hope to go into management maybe your crossing will build up browny points but if this is just a temporary job you are on your own. I would at least wait until you know which way the wind is blowing before crossing. [/quote]
For this reason, they aren't even allowing people to cross in BC. There are fears that it could lead to fights since the BC employees are really heated up over this.

[Resolute 14]

Originally posted by Mean Mr. Mustard+Jul 22 2005, 10:20 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Mean Mr. Mustard @ Jul 22 2005, 10:20 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Clarkey@Jul 21 2005, 10:58 PM
Maybe 100 people lost their jobs because they tried to collude to fata over Walmart.

I hate Walmart but I applauded what they did in Quebec.

100 people wanted health care coverage. I can't believe that you think that there is a huge problem with this. Right now Walmart is the equivant of the coal mine, they treat their employees like crap, the way they do business is downright criminal at times, and well they do all this in order to make a quick buck.

If organizing and attempting to get health care coverage for their families is equiable to fataing Walmart over I really question your perceptions. I guess those people only work at Walmart so they shouldn't be granted the ability to organize and the ability to ask for health care coverage.

I can't understand why you would side with the billionaire employers over the employees who are living under the poverty line. [/b][/quote]
While I have virtually no understanding of the issues in Quebec, so I can't comment on it specifically, I do have to state that your final statement there is nothing more than a very pathetic attempt at generating sympathy for the side you support.

The relative wealth of the employers vs the employees is completely irrelevent. All that matters are the issues and the legal obligations.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally posted by peter12+Jul 22 2005, 06:22 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (peter12 @ Jul 22 2005, 06:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

If it is so bad then don't work there.

Walmart doesn't have unions so I have no problem with them not wanting to have some store in Quebec trying to get crap that the company doesn't give out.

Easier said then done...

Imagine having a high school education and a family to raise... not too many options there.

All Wal-mart CEOs will burn in hell. [/b][/quote]
Sorry Peter I can't agree with what your saying.

These employee's have ample knowledge of what they're getting when they go to Walmart to work, if you don't like the conditions or options available to you, then don't work there.

Walmart has never been accused corporate mistreatment or misconduct, do they pay a low wage, and skim off the bottom of the employee pool, sure, but its not like they're going out and doing dock recruiting, people go to work for them and accept the offer. If it isn't your thing, then quit.

Right now for example in Calgary, there are more jobs then people, there are choices.

My problem with the unionization attempt in Quebec is that the union tried its typical ambush technique of overloading the store with current union members, and then attempting to manipulate the vote. Good for Walmart for thier reaction, and keeping control of thier company.

Could Walmart treat its staff better, probably, but they're driving a hyper competitive market and to remain competitive they have to do what they do to survive.

Again, people have choices, with Telus, if your that unhappy with pay, or your work environment, or your union, go find something else to do. If Telus was using 12 year old kids to make shoes, or paying below minimum wage I could see the use of the union, but Telus treats its people pretty well, and they are in a competitive market.

And also this stuff about CEO's being evil, and overpaid. For the most part, I don't really buy that, without the strategic vision of these individuals ( and thats where staff cuts come from) these companies wouldn't survive. So while Companies need good employee's they need talented leadership even more, and in order to get that, they need to buy the right people.

Ah I'm just blathering now, must be exhaustion.

[peter12]

No all your points were excellent and I agree with all of them. Maybe its just because I spent 2 1/2 months working in an absolute job hell that I sympathize with unions a bit more than I did before. At least I had the option of quitting.

[Stormchaser]

Originally posted by Winsor_Pilates@Jul 21 2005, 10:56 PM
My dad has worked for Telus/AGT for longer than I've been alive, and everything that he has told me sounds like what Firefly has wrote.
From what I've been told, this strike is really headed by the BC employees, and Alberta staff are pretty much being mislead and dragged into it. The union was at fault for not negotiating in four years, and dispite what their leaders say, they will likely end up with a much worse deal after all of this done than if they had negotiated in the first place.
Funny that Firefly compared it the The NHLPA, becuase that's the first thing that I thought of too.

This has a lot of truth to it. Alberta and BC workers are very opposed to each other "in general". Before the strike there has been a growing resentment towards each other. I have a pretty good feeling that most people striking in Telus' case are not avid union supporters in Alberta. I myself don't have the luxury of supporting my family on union pay. The majority of this battle stems from the workers in BC and crossed the line soley to provide for my family. Outside the building I could see some of my fellow team members who just smiled but there were a few who gave a couple "shame on you's" while trying not to make eye contact. I think its intersetingthat those people booing seemed ashamed of themselves if you made eye contact with them. Some of my team inside the building mentioned that some BC workers actually made the trip out here to strike to get everyone going.

[FireFly]

I wouldn't doubt it. I was called a scab. And our building is pretty much full right now, so I know most people came to work.

[BlackRedGold25]

These employee's have ample knowledge of what they're getting when they go to Walmart to work, if you don't like the conditions or options available to you, then don't work there.

And if the only jobs in your hometown are at Wal-Mart because they've driven all the local businesses under, what are they supposed to do?

Walmart has never been accused corporate mistreatment or misconduct, do they pay a low wage, and skim off the bottom of the employee pool, sure, but its not like they're going out and doing dock recruiting, people go to work for them and accept the offer. If it isn't your thing, then quit.

They've enlisted illegal aliens to work in their stores. They've fired whistleblowers despite assurances that whistleblowers wouldn't be subject to retribution. They can take advantage of their workers anytime they want because they aren't unionized.

Right now for example in Calgary, there are more jobs then people, there are choices.

And Wal-Mart didn't close a store in Calgary. If you hadn't noticed, Calgary isn't exactly like every other city when it comes to employment opportunities.

My problem with the unionization attempt in Quebec is that the union tried its typical ambush technique of overloading the store with current union members, and then attempting to manipulate the vote. Good for Walmart for thier reaction, and keeping control of thier company.

Because a union would have destroyed the biggest retailer in the world. OK.

Could Walmart treat its staff better, probably, but they're driving a hyper competitive market and to remain competitive they have to do what they do to survive.

Bullshinguard. They are doing what they can because they are greedy bas**rds who only care about themselves and squeezing more money into their Grand Canyon sized deep pockets.

Costco is kicking Sam's Clubs (Wal-Mart's wholesale club) ass in the US and they don't nickel and dime their employees or participate in union busting. If Costco can treat its employees fairly and be profitable, why can't Wal-Mart?

[duncan]

Originally posted by Hakan@Jul 21 2005, 05:11 PM
Unions definetely still have their place though, unfortunately, they're not where the workers need them. Most of the powerful unions are public sector unions because their employer, Government, sort of has to play by the rules and is decently accountable and transparent. I would argue that these unions hold a disproportionate and sometimes harmful amount of power. I look at BC Ferries being the prime example of this.

This does not mean that unions are not necessary or superfluous as there are countless industries which need union representation. Daycare workers and domestic workers, late night office cleaners, fruit pickers etc. If you notice, the most disadvantaged workers are usually those with the least amount of priviledge in our society, immigrants, minorities and poor people. There are no unions for the jobs which these people typically need to work in and there should be.

What is the term.......oh yeah, bullshinguard! I am a member of a Public Sector Union, and to say the government has to play by the rules, is transparant, or even close to accountable is complete crap. Whose rules do they play by? Their own! Premier Mike Harris was having labour problems with his unionized employees, so he enacted a new law, originally called Bill 25, to transfer 2500 members to a different union, so he could sway power. Harris didn't like labour laws interfering with his master plan, so he made public sector employees exempt from the Occupational Health and Safety Act, and Ontario's Labour Laws. While any other worker has the right to refuse unsafe work, I DON'T!, while any other worker is guaranteed a minimum 8 hours off a day, I AM NOT! while any other worker has labour laws protecting contracting out of work to an outside source in your own place of work, I DON'T! Ontario has scab protection laws, but Harris/Eves made their own rules, bringing retired managers in at double pay, 24 hours a day (when they weren't working, or eve in the building for up to 12 hours of it) instead of negotiating in 2002.

Until 1991, the Province of Ontario controlled our pension, and it ran at a deficit. We took control of our own pension, and quickly built a $700M surplus, allowing us to have jail guards and Psych hospital employees, etc, retire when their age and years worked combined to reach 80. Harris wanted that money, so he attempted to bargain that control back to the government, when we refused, he legistlated control of the surplus to his government. Harris/Eves syphoned off $350M of the surplus in 2002, never to be seen again. In 8 years, the Provincial government cut 35 000 public sector jobs, including; all provincial water testing labs and half of the inspectors (then Walkerton happened), 75% of meat inspectors (Aylmer scandal), 80% of Hospital support staff such as housekeeping and health labs (SARS epidemic and spread), because basic labour laws don't pertain to us.

My union has fought to get me basic search gloves that the police forces and federal guards have had for 25 years, so that I can do my job with reduced chance of needle sticks, etc. It is still trying to get some protection for institution nurses, such as covered needles. They have been battling for 5 years to get protective riot shields back, to protect staff from thrown feces and urine, and to deflect violent, attacking offenders. While other workers are told to evacuate during a fire, and given equipment to protect them, we are told to enter the area, without the fire ######ent coat, gloves etc., because we don't have the protection of the Health and Safety Act. While Police Officers are given new equipment to protect themselves (ASP batons, pepper spray, tasers), we have the basic equipment taken away. Until you have worked in one of these jobs, you have no clue as to how they are treated.

Governments make the laws, and as I have witnessed for 13 years, will change them to their benefit in a heart beat. Easiest place for a government to lay blame, their own employees. Ontario Hydro has a huge deficit..... can't be the fact that the CEO now has his own jet, or has seen his wage go from $250 000 to $1.3M in a 5 year span, or that his Board went from 4 members making over $100 000/yr, to 12 members making between $250 000 to $500 000/yr....... naw it's the unionized guys, so we will sell portions of it off and attempt to break the union. Who controls the Labour Board? The government. Who employs the mediators? The government.

The Government is the worst abuser of labour laws, because they can.

As for the scab/ striker debate..... will you enjoy the fruit of the striker's strife, or will you turn down any benefits/wage increase they get? If you crossed for your morals, keep them, and don't accept any benefit of their actions.

[Vulcan]

Good post Duncan, most people dissing unions don't have a clue or else they are in management or are want to be's as is shown by the two people strongly agreeing with Telus. The rest should do some research or wait until they actually get into the job market and try to raise a family.

'Don't need unions anymore', give your head a shake.

[FireFly]

Originally posted by Vulcan@Jul 23 2005, 05:18 PM
Good post Duncan, most people dissing unions don't have a clue or else they are in management or are want to be's as is shown by the two people strongly agreeing with Telus. The rest should do some research or wait until they actually get into the job market and try to raise a family.

'Don't need unions anymore', give your head a shake.

I actually don't want to work at Telus much longer, so I don't want to be management... unless I can't find a job in my field of study. I've been in a number of unions, and none of them were useful to me as an employee. That doesn't mean I don't feel there are useful unions, just the ones I've been in haven't been.

[Resolute 14]

Originally posted by Vulcan@Jul 23 2005, 04:18 PM
Good post Duncan, most people dissing unions don't have a clue or else they are in management or are want to be's as is shown by the two people strongly agreeing with Telus. The rest should do some research or wait until they actually get into the job market and try to raise a family.

'Don't need unions anymore', give your head a shake.

When you are admonishing people for getting on their high horses, you might want to make certian that you dont appear to be riding one yourself.

Unions do have their place in some areas, but they are certantly worthless in others. There really are no absolutes one way or the other.

In the case of the TWU, we have a strike being driven by the BC half of this union, with the Alberta members essentially being forced along against their will. One has to ask what this union thinks it is accomplishing exactly, and if it really is working in the best interest of it's members?

Like the NHLPA, lost salary is lost forever. This union is threatening to cost it's members hundreds of millions of dollars in wages because it refuses to accept that more than half of it's members are no longer owned by government, but rather a buisness that has to worry about profits and losses.

[Vulcan]

As I understand it the Alberta Telus employees have a long standing grievance against the B.C. half of the union. When Telus was amalgamated with B.C. Tel the employees had a vote to see which union would represent them. Alberta lost because they were outnumbered and even though they got an increase in wages they were p*ssed because they lost some of their independence and power. This wouldn't have anything to do with the Albertans reluctance to join the strike would it.

Say we get rid of the unions you don't think are meaningful anymore and see how fast the corporations take advantage. Look at the 'Right to Work' states south of the border and notice how much lower their wages are. Their will always be a few exceptions as some employers take pride in giving their employees decent wages and actually find it is cost effective. Outfits like Wallmart resort to pep meetings to get a decent work ethic out of employees. Talk about brainwashing.

[Vulcan]

"lost salary is
lost forever"
If we followed this seeming law we would still be working for $1.25/hr. There is a time to sacrifice for the future. In some ways the average working family is worse off today then they were in the 50's and 60's. In that era the wife could afford to stay home and care for the kids. I'm not saying that a woman should stay home but it is nice to have the option.

[FireFly]

Originally posted by Vulcan@Jul 23 2005, 10:46 PM
As I understand it the Alberta Telus employees have a long standing grievance against the B.C. half of the union. When Telus was amalgamated with B.C. Tel the employees had a vote to see which union would represent them. Alberta lost because they were outnumbered and even though they got an increase in wages they were p*ssed because they lost some of their independence and power. This wouldn't have anything to do with the Albertans reluctance to join the strike would it.

Say we get rid of the unions you don't think are meaningful anymore and see how fast the corporations take advantage. Look at the 'Right to Work' states south of the border and notice how much lower their wages are. Their will always be a few exceptions as some employers take pride in giving their employees decent wages and actually find it is cost effective. Outfits like Wallmart resort to pep meetings to get a decent work ethic out of employees. Talk about brainwashing.

There was no increase in wages in Alberta... we're still working under the contracts we signed with the other unions. There was a different union for TCI in Alberta, one for Mobility in Alberta, and one for everyone who was under BCTel. Yes, we were consolidated into the same union, but we're all working under our original contracts signed by our original unions.