Gelinas "It's going to be a struggle this year"

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by browna

Of course I think this is the case, and I think Feaster and Co. are probably more worried than will ever let on, at least at this point.

I truly think they thought that they would've acquired some more talent this offseason between trades, jumping on buyouts, and UFA's in general. A miscalculation on the prices, and the realization is setting in that this is going to be worse on the ice and off. Also, I think its been made clear, how, already, and going forward without something changing, how far the Flames repuatation around the league and the NHLPA, is now in the crapper.

Thus, it's harder to attract and convince those players that Feaster wants/needs to come here to compliment the younger guys, to come here. From one of the more desirable places to come and play, to now reaching Edmonton type depths in a few short years. Sad as a Calgarian and Flames fan, and makes the GM's job that much tougher (though he's done his part in making this bed).

Saying all that, will be interesting to see the "slogan"/how this team is going to be marketed this year. Not a peep on that yet from the upper offices with only a couple weeks until training camp. I don't think they want to talk about the full-on youth movement just yet because I think they want/need to get some more 29-32+ year olds to feel semi-comfortable with the roster they will throw out/have as depth, night in and night out.

Holy extrapolation Batman

[browna]

Originally Posted by edslunch

Holy extrapolation Batman

Feaster said to he was open for business at the draft, infamously the same words Lowe used a bunch of years back. Like Lowe, nothing transpired.

He told STH's at the post season meeting about how the Flames were setup well for taking advantage of buyout situations and robbing teams in cap trouble...words spouted around "acclerated rebuild" lends credence to that. Again, though, nothing like that happened.

Outside of dumping a player that didn't want to be here, and both players who the coach didn't like, for similar players from Colorado, it's been a quiet offseason for a team that has a bunch of money and willingness to spend it, but a whole lot of holes/question marks up and down the roster that remain.

The ROR thing, as much as people want to cover their ears about it and make excuses and move on from it, exposed some of the holes in the Flames upper chambers. The way the Iginla was handled trade more or less furthered that notion around the league, and confirmed that there is question as to who the ones making the final decisions within the Flames offices/ownership, actually is. All that factors into how players and agents look at Calgary as a UFA/NMC waive destination; of course those big question marks on the ice don't help and it's a snowball effect.

Just my somewhat educated opinion of course, and although the team and fans can pump up the prospects that hopefully will turn out in the years ahead, this is not the way the Flames/owners envisioned this past offseason going for the roster they are, at this point, throwing on the ice for the 2013-14 season.

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by browna

Feaster said to he was open for business at the draft, infamously the same words Lowe used a bunch of years back. Like Lowe, nothing transpired.

He told STH's at the post season meeting about how the Flames were setup well for taking advantage of buyout situations and robbing teams in cap trouble...words spouted around "acclerated rebuild" lends credence to that. Again, though, nothing like that happened.

Outside of dumping a player that didn't want to be here, and both players who the coach didn't like, for similar players from Colorado, it's been a quiet offseason for a team that has a bunch of money and willingness to spend it, but a whole lot of holes/question marks up and down the roster that remain.

The ROR thing, as much as people want to cover their ears about it and make excuses and move on from it, exposed some of the holes in the Flames upper chambers. The way the Iginla was handled trade more or less furthered that notion around the league, and confirmed that there is question as to who the ones making the final decisions within the Flames offices/ownership, actually is. All that factors into how players and agents look at Calgary as a UFA/NMC waive destination; of course those big question marks on the ice don't help and it's a snowball effect.

Just my somewhat educated opinion of course, and although the team and fans can pump up the prospects that hopefully will turn out in the years ahead, this is not the way the Flames/owners envisioned this past offseason going for the roster they are, at this point, throwing on the ice for the 2013-14 season.

I don't see it that way. The Flames picked up a useful free agent (Knight) and did take advantage of teams with salary issues (Gagliardi and Russell), though none of these are blockbusters. We have no evidence that they tried and failed to land a major free agent nor is there an obvious one they should have gone after.

So far guys like Knight and Gagliardi are thrilled to be here, so i don't buy that they can't attract players. Will they land a big name who can choose his ticket? Not likely for the foreseeable future but as much because it's a rebuild as anything, nor should they be swinging for the fences at this point.

I can see people having lingering doubts about the organizations' commitment to a proper rebuild, even as recently as last season. I choose to believe they are past that and that this off season has been consistent with that and with what they said they wanted to do. Would they like to have done more, probably, but the season hasn't started yet either.

[browna]

To add, the loss of landing Shanahan was a big blow to Edwards, who wanted to bring in him specifically as a league wide respected voice in a position of significance within the organization.

That cache he had would help regain some of that league-wide lost credibility, and it also shows the recognition from Edwards that something with the current setup is amiss...but still now leaves things in limbo there.

[moon]

Originally Posted by edslunch

I don't see it that way. The Flames picked up a useful free agent (Knight) and did take advantage of teams with salary issues (Gagliardi and Russell), though none of these are blockbusters. We have no evidence that they tried and failed to land a major free agent nor is there an obvious one they should have gone after.

Russell passed through waivers and Galiardi is a 4th line dime a dozen guy. I know everyone will have different definitions of what "advantage" means but those two moves seem to really stretch the meaning of take advantage of teams with salary issues.

[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by browna

Feaster said to he was open for business at the draft, infamously the same words Lowe used a bunch of years back. Like Lowe, nothing transpired.

He told STH's at the post season meeting about how the Flames were setup well for taking advantage of buyout situations and robbing teams in cap trouble...words spouted around "acclerated rebuild" lends credence to that. Again, though, nothing like that happened.

Outside of dumping a player that didn't want to be here, and both players who the coach didn't like, for similar players from Colorado, it's been a quiet offseason for a team that has a bunch of money and willingness to spend it, but a whole lot of holes/question marks up and down the roster that remain.

The ROR thing, as much as people want to cover their ears about it and make excuses and move on from it, exposed some of the holes in the Flames upper chambers. The way the Iginla was handled trade more or less furthered that notion around the league, and confirmed that there is question as to who the ones making the final decisions within the Flames offices/ownership, actually is. All that factors into how players and agents look at Calgary as a UFA/NMC waive destination; of course those big question marks on the ice don't help and it's a snowball effect.

Just my somewhat educated opinion of course, and although the team and fans can pump up the prospects that hopefully will turn out in the years ahead, this is not the way the Flames/owners envisioned this past offseason going for the roster they are, at this point, throwing on the ice for the 2013-14 season.

I sort of agree with you. I have no doubt in my mind that the roster the flames have right now was not plan "A". I do think Feaster was hoping for some trades to have a better quality team on the ice. I don't think he was delusional enough to think that the trades he was hoping for, would put them in the playoffs , but i don't think he wanted one of the worst teams on paper to start the season.

Did our current management make a bit of a mockery of the organization? I think so. I do however don't think it would have mattered one way or another. 99% of the hockey world ( players, agents, GM's, media ect) probably thought that the Flames needed a rebuild. Even if they were high regarded, no good UFA player would have wanted to play on a rebuilding team.

[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by moon

Russell passed through waivers and Galiardi is a 4th line dime a dozen guy. I know everyone will have different definitions of what "advantage" means but those two moves seem to really stretch the meaning of take advantage of teams with salary issues.

I agree. Those moves were made because Feaster knew that was about the only moves he could make. It's no fluke that both those players are on 1 year deals.

[edslunch]

Are there moves he should have made and didn't or is it just a case of him setting expectations too high?

[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by browna

To add, the loss of landing Shanahan was a big blow to Edwards, who wanted to bring in him specifically as a league wide respected voice in a position of significance within the organization.

That cache he had would help regain some of that league-wide lost credibility, and it also shows the recognition from Edwards that something with the current setup is amiss...but still now leaves things in limbo there.

Forgot all about Shanahan. After he declined i saw KK on TV, and he said they still had a handfull of people they were looking at. He also said that the person would be hired well before the season. Guess it's not going as planned.

[browna]

Originally Posted by edslunch

I don't see it that way. The Flames picked up a useful free agent (Knight) and did take advantage of teams with salary issues (Gagliardi and Russell), though none of these are blockbusters. We have no evidence that they tried and failed to land a major free agent nor is there an obvious one they should have gone after.

So far guys like Knight and Gagliardi are thrilled to be here, so i don't buy that they can't attract players. Will they land a big name who can choose his ticket? Not likely for the foreseeable future but as much because it's a rebuild as anything, nor should they be swinging for the fences at this point.

I can see people having lingering doubts about the organizations' commitment to a proper rebuild, even as recently as last season. I choose to believe they are past that and that this off season has been consistent with that and with what they said they wanted to do. Would they like to have done more, probably, but the season hasn't started yet either.

I understand that there is still time, but my contention is that this is not how management thought this offseason would turn out, and it's not just because they didn't want to, in some cases, it's because they got rejected from targeted players.

As a season ticket holder for 11 years, not looking forward to this season in the least, and just hoping the likely poor results don't stunt the development of those players, and there's not too many 6-1 7-1 games like witnessed the first year we got tickets in 2002.

As far as Russell, Knight, and Gagliardi, they are in part "thrilled" to play here because they are each playing in the NHL within 90 mins or less of where they born/grew up and have family. Perfectly fine and no fault on the Flames for taking advantage of that, but it makes a decision a lot easier for the player and the Flames don't have as big a sell job.

But, that's the path the Flames decided to go down this offseason...for all his other issues, keep a GM that swore multiple times since replacing Sutter, that the Flames would have to hire someone else, as wasn't going to be the guy to do a rebuild...and, kept the coach that was brought in to get the last ounces out of a veteran lineup that no longer exists.

[moon]

Originally Posted by edslunch

Are there moves he should have made and didn't or is it just a case of him setting expectations too high?

I personally think he should have moved out a lot more vets then he did but in terms of the "taking advantage of teams in salary trouble" I would say it is more of a setting expectations to high or more realistically running his mouth without thinking to try and act like he is up to big things.

[browna]

Originally Posted by kyuss275

Forgot all about Shanahan. After he declined i saw KK on TV, and he said they still had a handfull of people they were looking at. He also said that the person would be hired well before the season. Guess it's not going as planned.

It's because there really isn't/wasn't. From what I've heard on pretty good authority, Shanahan was identified months before by Edwards and really was the only guy desired.

Maybe a coincidence, but it seemed that Feaster started talking a lot more in that week before the draft after it was announced Shanahan wasn't taking the job. Bringing in a guy like that was basically the beginning of the end for Feaster, as Shanahan would've likely been in a position above him of some sort and, given the fresh outlook, given the benefit of the doubt.

[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by edslunch

Are there moves he should have made and didn't or is it just a case of him setting expectations too high?

Closer to " setting expectations too high". Really he misjudged the buy-out's , and he misjudged what teams in cap trouble would trade and what they would want in return.

Remember this is a guy who said at the STH that they would be spending to the cap. Have to think he was thinking about some high payed players joing the team at that point.

[Vulcan]

This rebuild isn't due to Feaster's planning, it's due to Feaster's incompetence. Now he needs to sell it like our northern neighbours did. Having said that, it's ironic that this is probably the best course for the Flames but after a couple of years of being bad, we should hire someone competent to lead us back.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by browna

I understand that there is still time, but my contention is that this is not how management thought this offseason would turn out, and it's not just because they didn't want to, in some cases, it's because they got rejected from targeted players.

As a season ticket holder for 11 years, not looking forward to this season in the least, and just hoping the likely poor results don't stunt the development of those players, and there's not too many 6-1 7-1 games like witnessed the first year we got tickets in 2002.

As far as Russell, Knight, and Gagliardi, they are in part "thrilled" to play here because they are each playing in the NHL within 90 mins or less of where they born/grew up and have family. Perfectly fine and no fault on the Flames for taking advantage of that, but it makes a decision a lot easier for the player and the Flames don't have as big a sell job.

But, that's the path the Flames decided to go down this offseason...for all his other issues, keep a GM that swore multiple times since replacing Sutter, that the Flames would have to hire someone else, as wasn't going to be the guy to do a rebuild...and, kept the coach that was brought in to get the last ounces out of a veteran lineup that no longer exists.

please elaborate

[BACKCHECK!!!]

The roster the Flames have is not a bunch of kids finally getting their chance in the NHL.

This roster is mostly guys between 28 and 30 years old, who collectively just aren't as good as most NHL teams.

I think the ideal situation is to see one prospect at each of the 5 skater positions, and the rest of the roster consisting of veterans who can shelter, mentor, and spoon-feed the prospects as needed.


That's pretty close to what the Flames are doing this year.

The only thing I'd like to see the Flames do differently at this point would be to overpay some higher-end players on short-term 2-3 year deals, so that the vets on the team are of a higher calibre. For example young wingers like Baertschi will be able to play at a higher level on Grabovski's wing than on Stajan's wing, because Grabovski is better in every way. He is faster, he can pull the trigger on their set-ups better, and can feed them better passes. I think this applies to every position, and I think that surrounding our rookies and prospects with a higher calibre of player is worth the possibility of finishing maybe a couple draft spots higher. And a Mikhail Grabovski or Michael Ryder (just for examples) is not going to stop this team from drafting very, very high.

If think Karri Ramo is the only thing that can stop this team from drafting top 5.

[kingkahuna]

Originally Posted by Red-Mile-DJ

And the Canucks.

And the Leafs

[FAN]

Originally Posted by browna

Maybe a coincidence, but it seemed that Feaster started talking a lot more in that week before the draft after it was announced Shanahan wasn't taking the job. Bringing in a guy like that was basically the beginning of the end for Feaster, as Shanahan would've likely been in a position above him of some sort and, given the fresh outlook, given the benefit of the doubt.

I actually don't necessarily see bringing in a "hockey guy" like Shanahan as President as spelling the beginning of the end for Feaster. For one thing, Shanahan isn't being interviewed for the GM position. He's being interviewed for the President position and even if given ultimate authority in hockey operations matter, he still needs a someone there to handle or help handle everyday GM duties the way the Blues operated with John Davidson and Larry Pleau.

The Flames organization haven't been about hiring a guy to clean house. It's been more like choose your own successor. The odds are the next GM will be a guy that Feaster hired.

[BloodFetish]

Originally Posted by browna

I understand that there is still time, but my contention is that this is not how management thought this offseason would turn out, and it's not just because they didn't want to, in some cases, it's because they got rejected from targeted players.

As a season ticket holder for 11 years, not looking forward to this season in the least, and just hoping the likely poor results don't stunt the development of those players, and there's not too many 6-1 7-1 games like witnessed the first year we got tickets in 2002.

As far as Russell, Knight, and Gagliardi, they are in part "thrilled" to play here because they are each playing in the NHL within 90 mins or less of where they born/grew up and have family. Perfectly fine and no fault on the Flames for taking advantage of that, but it makes a decision a lot easier for the player and the Flames don't have as big a sell job.

But, that's the path the Flames decided to go down this offseason...for all his other issues, keep a GM that swore multiple times since replacing Sutter, that the Flames would have to hire someone else, as wasn't going to be the guy to do a rebuild...and, kept the coach that was brought in to get the last ounces out of a veteran lineup that no longer exists.

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

please elaborate

And provide a source?

[Luder]