Building The Flames Defense For 2013/14

[puckedoff]

Originally Posted by FAN

I think Moon is arguing that Wideman doesn't make this team better. I think it's a fair argument.

Wideman is not the ideal top pairing defenceman, but when the alternative is playing Butler or Carson for 25 minutes a night I know which I'd rather.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by StrykerSteve
Carson 6'4 210
Breen 6'7 224
Babchuk 6'5 200
Lamb 6'1 215
Martin 6'1 200
Wotherspoon 6'1 196
Ramage 6'1 183

There's more to it than just size.

It looks like Wotherspoon has grown some. He's now listed at 6'2" and 209, although in may take couple of years to see him with the Flames.

I agree we need an upgrade in size with the defence and with the whole team. If Breen is ready he could be an impact player for us as he's not just big but likes to fight as well.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

How would you like the Flames management to build the D next season?

Do you want them to just simply bring back the RFA's, and have the above group duke it out for roster spots/ice time, given that it's a rebuilding year anyways?

Are you hoping they make a major splash or two via trade or UFA?

Just some minor tweaking via trade/UFA?

Back to the OPs questions, I am completely fine bringing back the same group and maybe even getting rid of Butler if Breen and Cundari impress enough. Here's what we have to work with with the group IMO:

Brodie #2-not only has he improved, he's been so calm and steady with the puck in his own zone that I feel he can eventually develop into a #1 guy. He's definitely a #2 right now but has some room to grow still. Keep giving him 25 minutes a night on the top pairing.

Giordano #3-Gio has regressed a little this year playing more minutes against tougher opponents. Something tells me that he will continue to work on his game and will probably be better next year and could even be a 2B guy, but is likely a #3 guy going forward. No knock against him, it's just where he's going to help the team the best.

Wideman #4-Playing with a down year Gio has shown why Wideman isn't worthy of top pairing minutes. That being said, when he has a strong defensive partner he can be very effective getting out of the zone and attacking on offense. Play him with the right guy and he'll be fine going forward.

Butler #5-#7-It entirely depends on the night with Butler. Sometimes he can be an effective 3 zone player, other nights he is a complete disaster. To me, it's between the ears, and if he ever figures it out he could be a good asset. I'm just not sure that he will ever figure it out since he is already 26 and hasn't improved much from when we first acquired him. The only reason I would keep him is to have some NHL capable depth, but if we could get a decent draft pick from someone else giving him an offer sheet, I say let him walk.

Sarich #6-#7-Sarich is a steady veteran presence with great physical play, but he simply can't keep up with top line players anymore. I would play him with a mobile defender and give him bottom pairing minutes next year, taking the odd game off if we are playing an exceptionally quick team. I love what he could teach the young kids coming up.

Cundari AHL/#5-#6?- To me Cundari is a slightly more skilled version of Andrew Ference. A small player but a "bulldog" in his own zone and good offensive instincts. He's the perfect type of guy to pair with Sarich on the 3rd pairing, but he still has to prove he can play in the NHL on a regular basis. My gut tells me he can handle 3rd pairing minutes as early as next year, but you never know and he could possibly move into a top 4 role if he continues to impress.

Breen AHL/#5-#7?-He's a total unknown quantity to me, but he has been close for a couple years now in the Flames management's eyes. If not for an injury, he'd definitely be playing right now I'm sure. I don't know if he can play in the NHL, but it sounds like his style of play would likely take over Sarich's role in the future.

Carson AHL/#7- He's a depth defender. Always has been, always will be. He has moments here and there, but he's not quite up to snuff to play regular minutes. I let him walk.

Babchuk AHL/PP specialist-I can't think of one good thing Babchuk can do besides shoot the puck. Let him run off to Russia.

Smith #7-Derek is a quality player when he doesn't play a lot of minutes, and doesn't play every night. I would actually keep him as a decent 7th defenseman that could be a good fit for Hartley's system. I wouldn't cry if we traded him away either.

Wotherspoon, Ramage, Lamb, and Martin will all definitely be in the AHL next year to start (also not sure that Lamb will be qualified). That means that two of Smith, Butler, Sarich, Cundari, and Breen will be in the AHL as well. My money is on Smith and Breen unless Sarich is traded away.

Agreed that there probably isn't even room for Kulak, Culkin, or Sieloff on the AHL team, and it wouldn't be good for their development anyway, despite Kulak playing with them this year.

So in the end, we don't have anyone able to handle the #1 minutes that Bouwmeester took with him. It's not the end of the world for a rebuilding team to have that gap, but it would make us a lot more competitive sooner if we were able to fill it with a younger player. IMO, Tyler Myers has #1 potential, and if Buffalo is interested in moving him I would work very hard to acquire him without giving up our own valuable prospects. Easier said than done since Buffalo is also on a mini-rebuild, but that is the type of player that can fill that role. I would rather not pay an aging veteran to play #1 minutes unless they can actually play physical defense on a top pairing.

If by some miracle we win the draft lottery, I would actually take Seth Jones to fill that #1 role. We are weak at center, but even weaker with shutdown top line defensemen. Build your team from the net out and top end talent on the blue line. Jankowski is our long term top center prospect at the moment, and we might be in line for another top center next draft too, AND centers are usually ready sooner than defensemen.

Whew...long post I know.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Cali Flames Fan

Agreed that there probably isn't even room for Kulak, Culkin, or Sieloff on the AHL team, and it wouldn't be good for their development anyway, despite Kulak playing with them this year.

Only Culkin will be old enough to play in the AHL next year. The other two must be in junior or the NHL.

[Fire]

Butler needs to go... I know he is a capable bottom pairing defenseman at a good price but the Flames need more size. If Breen is not capable then they need to sign a big and physical UFA D-man to replace Butler.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Fire

Butler needs to go... I know he is a capable bottom pairing defenseman at a good price but the Flames need more size. If Breen is not capable then they need to sign a big and physical UFA D-man to replace Butler.

Your argument doesn't really make any sense. Why can't they replace Smith with a big and physical d-man? or Sarich?

Saying Butler is a capable bottom pairing defenseman at a good price is true.
Saying we need more size is true.
Then saying that Butler is the one that needs to be replaced doesn't logically follow from that.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Cali Flames Fan

So in the end, we don't have anyone able to handle the #1 minutes that Bouwmeester took with him. It's not the end of the world for a rebuilding team to have that gap, but it would make us a lot more competitive sooner if we were able to fill it with a younger player.

So here are some team stats pre and post Bouwmeester

Penalty Kill
With Bouw - 21 PPGA in 106 attempts = 80.1%
Without - 5 PPGA in 35 attempts = 85.7%
* including Oilers 3 for 5 in the 8-2 meltdown when the team didn't show up, they have only allowed 2 PPGA in 30 attempts since

Overall team
With Bouw - 13W-16L-4OTL
34 GP 94 GF 114 GA
2.84 GF/G 3.45 GA/G

Without Bouw - 6W 6L
GP 12 GF 30 GA 31
2.5 GF/G, 2.58 GA/G

Looks like the team is okay with nobody able to handle those #1 minutes that he took, and slumming it with Brodie taking a lot more minutes and also others such as Sarich getting more minutes.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

So here are some team stats pre and post Bouwmeester

Penalty Kill
With Bouw - 21 PPGA in 106 attempts = 80.1%
Without - 5 PPGA in 35 attempts = 85.7%
* including Oilers 3 for 5 in the 8-2 meltdown when the team didn't show up, they have only allowed 2 PPGA in 30 attempts since

Overall team
With Bouw - 13W-16L-4OTL
34 GP 94 GF 114 GA
2.84 GF/G 3.45 GA/G

Without Bouw - 6W 6L
GP 12 GF 30 GA 31
2.5 GF/G, 2.58 GA/G

Looks like the team is okay with nobody able to handle those #1 minutes that he took, and slumming it with Brodie taking a lot more minutes and also others such as Sarich getting more minutes.

Agreed.

Doesn't mean we still don't eventually need someone to play with Brodie on the top pairing.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by moon

I would like to see Butler and Wideman moved for anything. Late pick, crap prospect get off the team.

Butler brings nothing to the table. Of course we want him gone.

Wideman has played at a 40 point pace in a lockout shortened season on a new team that has had precious little going for it. He is what he is; a 2nd pairing D who can move the puck and put up 40-50 points a year. If he was a 3rd pairing D with that offense, he'd get max 3.5M. If he was a 1st pairing D, he'd make 8. He's market value for what he brings, and given that he isn't a cancerous ######, I'd say he's a useful member of the team being forward.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Your argument doesn't really make any sense. Why can't they replace Smith with a big and physical d-man? or Sarich?

Saying Butler is a capable bottom pairing defenseman at a good price is true.
Saying we need more size is true.
Then saying that Butler is the one that needs to be replaced doesn't logically follow from that.

Butler needs to be replaced because he is a passive, weak, slow-thinking player. He doesn't move the puck well, he doesn't shut down anyone, he doesn't win puck battles, and he doesn't bring anything to the table offensively. He is not a leader, he is not composed in any situation, he does not fight.

Why do you want that player to return?

Smith, though a limited player, has good awareness, makes smart decisions, shows composure with the puck and is generally a competent defender against bottom six competition with some spot duty in the top 4 sprinkled in. He does almost everything that Butler doesn't. And he costs 600K less.

I do not want a player on this team who's biggest selling point is 'good price'. He's a hockey player, not Hyundai.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by FAN

I think Moon is arguing that Wideman doesn't make this team better. I think it's a fair argument.

No, it isn't. Wideman is a supporting piece. He is not a core player. But he is a contributor. He is a half PPG defenseman who is a mere -8 on one of the worst teams in the NHL.

I get that some people don't really like the contract. Get over it. By the time his offense begins to drop off, the cap will be going up again.

[PeteMoss]

Kudos to Butler for regaining his status as a whipping boy. It appeared for a while there that Gio was going to surpass him after Bouwmeester's redemption this year... but Butler came through in the clutch and has taken back his spot.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Butler needs to be replaced because he is a passive, weak, slow-thinking player. He doesn't move the puck well, he doesn't shut down anyone, he doesn't win puck battles, and he doesn't bring anything to the table offensively. He is not a leader, he is not composed in any situation, he does not fight.

Why do you want that player to return?

Smith, though a limited player, has good awareness, makes smart decisions, shows composure with the puck and is generally a competent defender against bottom six competition with some spot duty in the top 4 sprinkled in. He does almost everything that Butler doesn't. And he costs 600K less.

I do not want a player on this team who's biggest selling point is 'good price'. He's a hockey player, not Hyundai.

Smith and Butler are very similar players. That you think Smith is superior shows your bias or hate for Butler IMO. Everything you say Smith does, Butler does as well.

[Fire]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Your argument doesn't really make any sense. Why can't they replace Smith with a big and physical d-man? or Sarich?

Saying Butler is a capable bottom pairing defenseman at a good price is true.
Saying we need more size is true.
Then saying that Butler is the one that needs to be replaced doesn't logically follow from that.

Smith is another option for sure. Trading Sarich just replaces one physical D-man with another.

Giordano Wideman
Brodie Cundari
Sarich Breen/UFA
Butler/Smith <-- one gets traded

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Cali Flames Fan

Back to the OPs questions, I am completely fine bringing back the same group and maybe even getting rid of Butler if Breen and Cundari impress enough. Here's what we have to work with with the group IMO:

Brodie #2-not only has he improved, he's been so calm and steady with the puck in his own zone that I feel he can eventually develop into a #1 guy. He's definitely a #2 right now but has some room to grow still. Keep giving him 25 minutes a night on the top pairing.

Giordano #3-Gio has regressed a little this year playing more minutes against tougher opponents. Something tells me that he will continue to work on his game and will probably be better next year and could even be a 2B guy, but is likely a #3 guy going forward. No knock against him, it's just where he's going to help the team the best.

Wideman #4-Playing with a down year Gio has shown why Wideman isn't worthy of top pairing minutes. That being said, when he has a strong defensive partner he can be very effective getting out of the zone and attacking on offense. Play him with the right guy and he'll be fine going forward.

Butler #5-#7-It entirely depends on the night with Butler. Sometimes he can be an effective 3 zone player, other nights he is a complete disaster. To me, it's between the ears, and if he ever figures it out he could be a good asset. I'm just not sure that he will ever figure it out since he is already 26 and hasn't improved much from when we first acquired him. The only reason I would keep him is to have some NHL capable depth, but if we could get a decent draft pick from someone else giving him an offer sheet, I say let him walk.

Sarich #6-#7-Sarich is a steady veteran presence with great physical play, but he simply can't keep up with top line players anymore. I would play him with a mobile defender and give him bottom pairing minutes next year, taking the odd game off if we are playing an exceptionally quick team. I love what he could teach the young kids coming up.

Cundari AHL/#5-#6?- To me Cundari is a slightly more skilled version of Andrew Ference. A small player but a "bulldog" in his own zone and good offensive instincts. He's the perfect type of guy to pair with Sarich on the 3rd pairing, but he still has to prove he can play in the NHL on a regular basis. My gut tells me he can handle 3rd pairing minutes as early as next year, but you never know and he could possibly move into a top 4 role if he continues to impress.

Breen AHL/#5-#7?-He's a total unknown quantity to me, but he has been close for a couple years now in the Flames management's eyes. If not for an injury, he'd definitely be playing right now I'm sure. I don't know if he can play in the NHL, but it sounds like his style of play would likely take over Sarich's role in the future.

Carson AHL/#7- He's a depth defender. Always has been, always will be. He has moments here and there, but he's not quite up to snuff to play regular minutes. I let him walk.

Babchuk AHL/PP specialist-I can't think of one good thing Babchuk can do besides shoot the puck. Let him run off to Russia.

Smith #7-Derek is a quality player when he doesn't play a lot of minutes, and doesn't play every night. I would actually keep him as a decent 7th defenseman that could be a good fit for Hartley's system. I wouldn't cry if we traded him away either.

Wotherspoon, Ramage, Lamb, and Martin will all definitely be in the AHL next year to start (also not sure that Lamb will be qualified). That means that two of Smith, Butler, Sarich, Cundari, and Breen will be in the AHL as well. My money is on Smith and Breen unless Sarich is traded away.

Agreed that there probably isn't even room for Kulak, Culkin, or Sieloff on the AHL team, and it wouldn't be good for their development anyway, despite Kulak playing with them this year.

So in the end, we don't have anyone able to handle the #1 minutes that Bouwmeester took with him. It's not the end of the world for a rebuilding team to have that gap, but it would make us a lot more competitive sooner if we were able to fill it with a younger player. IMO, Tyler Myers has #1 potential, and if Buffalo is interested in moving him I would work very hard to acquire him without giving up our own valuable prospects. Easier said than done since Buffalo is also on a mini-rebuild, but that is the type of player that can fill that role. I would rather not pay an aging veteran to play #1 minutes unless they can actually play physical defense on a top pairing.

If by some miracle we win the draft lottery, I would actually take Seth Jones to fill that #1 role. We are weak at center, but even weaker with shutdown top line defensemen. Build your team from the net out and top end talent on the blue line. Jankowski is our long term top center prospect at the moment, and we might be in line for another top center next draft too, AND centers are usually ready sooner than defensemen.

Whew...long post I know.

If you are going to put so much effort and thought into a posts maybe you should do some fact checking.

The Flames pairings almost to the day they got rid of Bouwmeester were

Bouwmeester and Giordano - Wideman and Brodie


Wideman and Gio got put together after Bouwmeester left and Gio's quality of play increased dramatically.

For most of the year Wideman played with Brodie........ Brodie has had a break through year.

Seems that Wideman is a good partner to play with.

If Wideman did not look ready for #1/2 minutes maybe it might have to do with him playing with a Brodie who as of today has 101 NHL games under his belt.

Even Lidstrom was not paired with newbies and expected to put in #1/2 minutes.

In the last 3 years Bouwmeester played with Regher, Butler and Gio. It is hard to evaluate Butler but Regeher and Gio both were/are established better than average NHL d-men who had career worst years playing with Jaybo. Butler may never recover.


Your whole analysis that other than getting rid of Bouwmeester the Flames have not addressed the fact that they as a group can not offer any protection to their goalie.......


On Breen being close..... 3 years in the AHL 203 games and not 1 NHL game???? on a team that desperately needs some size on defense!! A great 2013-14 for Breen would be 10 NHL games playing 5-10 minutes.

[metroneck]

I'd like to see a big, nasty 1 goal, 5 assist shutdown D partner for Brodie.

Needs to be able to skate, but I don't care if he has zero offensive upside.

Keep Gio and Wideman together, with Sarich and revolving rookie in the 5/6/7.

[PaperBagger'14]

No need to worry guys, Doug Maclean said that our defense core showed some promise. He mentioned specifically Brodie, Giordano, Wideman and Butler

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

I do not want a player on this team who's biggest selling point is 'good price'. He's a hockey player, not Hyundai.

Perfectly put