Healthcare Thread #4411

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by puckluck2

Maybe so, but the guy I know who did it can still hold his kids when before the procedure he never had.

It did gradually not be as effective but it still is a lot better than it was before the surgery.

Anecdotal.

If we want to trade anecdotes, the guy I know who did it spent his life savings getting the procedure and when he got back, he said he felt MUCH better and could move his hands better than he could in years. The next week he went missing. They found him crying in the handicapped bathroom where he was crying... he couldn't get himself off the toilet and into his wheelchair... he couldn't even hit the emergency button.

[normtwofinger]

My friend cut his finger off and didn't have to wait. He did have an ambulance though.

[Azure]

Well in my experience the only thing worse than the waiting time in the ER in Manitoba is the waiting time in the walk in clinic.

I remember when the swine flu was a big deal, right when I had my head injury. There were like 50 people sitting in the ER with the flu. I know, some of them could be serious, but why not go to the walk-in clinic?

Well the why is because they are a joke here. Certainly not like the walk-in clinic in my former hometown in Alberta.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by Azure

Table saw I believe. Bit of a freak accident, and not something you'd expect for someone who has been in the renovation industry for 30 years.

Slightly OT, but that's exactly the type of person I'd expect to suffer a power tool accident. The number of corners that people will cut in terms of safety to save a few seconds is astounding. With a proper guard, splitter, and technique the chance of blade contact is virtually nil. Unfortunately a lot of people with a lot of experience can't be bothered to use those.

Back on topic, Canada does have some pretty serious issues with health care but all in all it's provides pretty good bang for our country's buck at least relative to our neighbors. There are definitely some drawbacks that cause needless stress on patients and those around them, but at the same time the final outcomes are still quite good. We could have faster service and fewer waits, but at what cost and to what benefit?

When you're next door the most expensive health care system in the world your costs are going to be higher because you have to compete against them for labor. The US government already spends more per capita on health care than Canada does and they barely cover anyone (basically seniors and low income families). Throw in all the private money through insurance and people paying for their own treatment and you have a massively expensive system that Canada has to operate beside. In that context Canada is doing fairly well given the money spent.

[DuffMan]

Originally Posted by normtwofinger

My friend cut his finger off and didn't have to wait. He did have an ambulance though.

normthreefinger?

[pylon]

Originally Posted by Azure

Well in my experience the only thing worse than the waiting time in the ER in Manitoba is the waiting time in the walk in clinic.

I remember when the swine flu was a big deal, right when I had my head injury. There were like 50 people sitting in the ER with the flu. I know, some of them could be serious, but why not go to the walk-in clinic?

Well the why is because they are a joke here. Certainly not like the walk-in clinic in my former hometown in Alberta.

Do you think during a pandemic that the magical US system will have no wait times? Probably not, they have Star Trek holodoctors they can activate, right?

[puckluck2]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

Anecdotal.

If we want to trade anecdotes, the guy I know who did it spent his life savings getting the procedure and when he got back, he said he felt MUCH better and could move his hands better than he could in years. The next week he went missing. They found him crying in the handicapped bathroom where he was crying... he couldn't get himself off the toilet and into his wheelchair... he couldn't even hit the emergency button.

Of course I know it's anecdotal.

Still gives lots of MS patients hope that they're on the right track.

[Devils'Advocate]

Which is why the fellow I know was in the bathroom crying. Hope made him spend every last dime that he had. And he broke down when he realized that it was false hope.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by pylon

Do you think during a pandemic that the magical US system will have no wait times? Probably not, they have Star Trek holodoctors they can activate, right?

Perhaps you should actually bother to read the thread instead of pulling comments out of you know what.

I have NEVER said the US system is better.

Why does everyone keep comparing Canada to the US when someone says Canada needs to fix some major health care problems?

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by pylon

Do you think during a pandemic that the magical US system will have no wait times? Probably not, they have Star Trek holodoctors they can activate, right?

It would be prudent to confirm with Starfleet's HMO that its insurance covers holodoctor fees prior to utilizing such.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by Azure

Perhaps you should actually bother to read the thread instead of pulling comments out of you know what.

I have NEVER said the US system is better.

Why does everyone keep comparing Canada to the US when someone says Canada needs to fix some major health care problems?

We're still waiting for some sort of credible comparison that shows that any health care system is markedly better than Canada's. So far Poland has apparently failed the test.

[J epworth]

Originally Posted by Makarov

We're still waiting for some sort of credible comparison that shows that any health care system is markedly better than Canada's. So far Poland has apparently failed the test.

Hey I just completed my masters in public health yesterday. I'm crazy busy today but I'll make sure to come back to this thread tomorrow and give you some good analysis of different health systems in developed countries and how Canada stacks up.

[Azure]

Heh, actually found a news article about the disc replacement operation that is not available in Canada.

Dozens of Manitobans are spending thousands of dollars flying to Germany for a type of back surgery unavailable in North America.

The disc replacement operation uses titanium discs, which are not approved by the Health Canada or the U.S. Food and Drug Administration.

As such, Manitoba Health doesn't cover the cost, so those who have chosen to have the operation must pay for it themselves.

One of them, Howard Braun, is a long-distance trucker whose back pain at times prevented him from working. During one road trip, he was forced to abandon his rig and fly home.

Braun, from Altona, decided to foot the $47,000 bill and go to Germany after twice having surgery in Canada that never solved the problem.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manito...-manitoba.html

[Dan02]

Well unfortunately in Canada you need to prove efficacy and safety before new procedures are approved.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Makarov

We're still waiting for some sort of credible comparison that shows that any health care system is markedly better than Canada's. So far Poland has apparently failed the test.

If you want to believe the WHO, Canada is #30 on the list. Poland is #51. Interestingly enough, France, with their two-tier universal system is #1. But no, we can't have that, can we?

Not that hard to go look it up yourself. Of course, one would have to believe that the Canadian system needs help before they go looking at a different system and how we could use their ideas to improve our own.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Dan02

Well unfortunately in Canada you need to prove efficacy and safety before new procedures are approved.

I realize that.

Just pointing out that there are people in Canada paying a lot of money for out of country procedures. Many of them go to the Mayo Clinic in the States as well for procedures that are available in Canada, just not in 2 weeks.

Its easy to say to someone they should quit complaining about wait times, but when you live with back pain, which tends to be pretty common, people will find ways to get treatment even if it means paying out of pocket.

[Plett25]

Originally Posted by Azure

If you want to believe the WHO, Canada is #30 on the list. Poland is #51. Interestingly enough, France, with their two-tier universal system is #1. But no, we can't have that, can we?

Not that hard to go look it up yourself. Of course, one would have to believe that the Canadian system needs help before they go looking at a different system and how we could use their ideas to improve our own.

Yeah, not hard to look up, but frequently misunderstood.

Canada is 7th by health outcomes (Annex 9 of the report) 30th is a bang-for-your-buck measure. And it is a 13 year old study using 16 year old data, so we were 7th, but that was a long time ago.

Canada's health system is pretty average in the first world. And basically every country with a better system has more government and less private sector in the health care system.

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by Azure

If you want to believe the WHO, Canada is #30 on the list. Poland is #51. Interestingly enough, France, with their two-tier universal system is #1. But no, we can't have that, can we?

Not that hard to go look it up yourself. Of course, one would have to believe that the Canadian system needs help before they go looking at a different system and how we could use their ideas to improve our own.

France spends 11% of their GDP on health care and has 3.3 doctors per 1000 people, whereas Canada has only 2.2. I think we would need a significant rise in taxes to pay for more doctors to compete with France on that level.

In finding that data, I came across an interesting graphic:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...8/HC-Graph.jpg

The U.S. has BY FAR the most expensive health care system in the world. And also one of the lowest life expectancy of any developed country.

[para transit fellow]

[QUOTE=Maritime Q-Scout;4214654]
<snip>
For example, if doctors bill on average 30 hours a week. Have doctors bill 10 hours a week to the public system, and the other 20+ they can bill according to the guidelines set forth by the profession.

I know doctors work more than 30 hours a week, why I said billable hours that are attributed directly to the patient (like accountants and lawyers do).

How feisable this is I don't know. As I said I know know enough of the current system to be able to construct a new one.

Just a thought on how to make a public/private system without having the top doctors leave.
<snip>
[QUOTE]

two challenges to consider for your modelling:

The first challenge to your model is that most doctors /specialists are paid PER Procedure instead of by the hour.

Second challenge is how does private procedures change wait times when there is a fixed number of doctors in the system?

My observation from having a surgeon in the family - there is only on so many hours in a week. So if half of his efforts were focused on privately funded care, then he only has the remaining half to focus on public care.... In his specialty, he cannot increase his overall weekly output, so by taking on privately funded patients, he has changed his funding base but has not changed any overall impact on wait time.

[Cowperson]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

France spends 11% of their GDP on health care and has 3.3 doctors per 1000 people, whereas Canada has only 2.2. I think we would need a significant rise in taxes to pay for more doctors to compete with France on that level.

In finding that data, I came across an interesting graphic:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...8/HC-Graph.jpg

The U.S. has BY FAR the most expensive health care system in the world. And also one of the lowest life expectancy of any developed country.

They spend astronomically more on healthcare administration than more efficient government run systems.

Cowperson