Calgary Flames: No Post Apex Plan (N-PAP)

[DuffMan]

Originally Posted by Realtor 1

I can't be the only one for keeping mcgrattam begin and Jackman as a cheap effective 4th line. They are beasts to deal with and have arguably been out best line since put together. As a bonus they don't take stupid 4th line penalties.

Totally agree, and I've been saying this all year, not only are they the best bang for the buck , but most nights they are simply the best line on the whole damn team.

Back to the OP, I just realized Cammalleri and Wideman are making almost Iginla and Bouwmeister money, wtf.

[nfotiu]

I wonder what they consider apex. The internet says that hockey players peak around 26. So I guess that would be the number they were using. Most of Feaster's comments have been about acquiring post apex players, not getting rid of the ones we have, as well.

So, who is out there to acquire that is under 26 and isn't going to cost us young assets or draft picks? i guess the ideal profile would be a 25 year old that may be a bit overpaid, but still a solid player on a team dealing with cap pressure, that we can take off their hands for little or maybe even negative return and help them avoid any buyouts.

[calgARI]

Originally Posted by StrykerSteve

That's your starting point. Go from there.

Looks more like an ending point.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by nfotiu

I wonder what they consider apex. The internet says that hockey players peak around 26. So I guess that would be the number they were using.

Lord nows the internet is never wrong!

I would bet heavely against that being the number that they're using. That number doesn't range into the UFA range. If I were to make a guess it would be in the 27-31 range where the number they look at is the last year of the prospective contract (So for example a 3 year deal for a 27 year old is ok but a 4 year deal for a 30 year old isn't).

The idea IMO isn't a hard and strict number (and I doubt they have such a strict definition, it probably varies player by player... Tim Thomas for example didn't hit his prime until his thirties) it's probably just that they want to get players who are at or before their prime (which I would define "prime" as the 27-31 range) but not in their declining years.

Originally Posted by StrykerSteve

I like this plan a lot, minus one aspect. Signing UFAs means taking roster spots that you could be using for your youngsters.

Frankly I'd rather we not rush young guys. I think one of the worse things you can do is play young players not ready for the NHL. I'm pretty well opposed to playing yougins' by sole virtue of the fact that their young. When you do that all you end up doing do is burning the team control years while watching them struggle. I'd rather we adopt the Detroit approach and have them work their way up only when they're ready then adopt the Oiler approach where we waste time and ultimately money for nothing at all.

[PeteMoss]

Don't want post apex players... but don't want to listen to trade offers on a 30 year old player. Hmmmm.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

Don't want post apex players... but don't want to listen to trade offers on a 30 year old player. Hmmmm.

Glencross is at his prime not past it.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by Parallex

Glencross is at his prime not past it.

Which is why you sell him now when his value is at it's peak.

As good as he's played the last few years, he's not a guy to build around, and won't be that great in 3-4 years when we're ready to make some noise again. The Flames made their mistake not trading Iggy when he still had a decent return....looks like they are about to do it with Glencross too.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

McDonald is worse in net than Sarich is as depth D.

I disagree, but I think the real question is, do we want to go the next season with two rookie goaltenders?

I'd argue no, because IMO an insecure goaltender can break the whole teams confidence and thus damage the all-important player development process.

But, you could make the case that it doesn't matter much, because next season will be a throwaway season anyway. We will lose more than win anyway, so we might as well give our goaltending prospects every possible chance to prove themselves. And really, I don't think it's a big deal either way.

I think the most important part is getting some more big bodies into the roster, and trading away some of our soft veterans. Mostly IMO Tanguay and Cammalleri should go, but Hudler and Stajan are equal options.

We are not going to be very skilled, so we need to get significantly bigger and tougher.

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by Itse

I disagree, but I think the real question is, do we want to go the next season with two best goalies outside the NHL?

I'd argue no, because IMO an insecure goaltender can break the whole teams confidence and thus damage the all-important player development process.

But, you could make the case that it doesn't matter much, because next season will be a throwaway season anyway. We will lose more than win anyway, so we might as well give our goaltending prospects every possible chance to prove themselves. And really, I don't think it's a big deal either way.

I think the most important part is getting some more big bodies into the roster, and trading away some of our soft veterans. Mostly IMO Tanguay and Cammalleri should go, but Hudler and Stajan are equal options.

We are not going to be very skilled, so we need to get significantly bigger and tougher.

fyp. You, sir, have insufficient confidence in the new rock solid plan here at Kruger.

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by nfotiu

I wonder what they consider apex. The internet says that hockey players peak around 26. So I guess that would be the number they were using. Most of Feaster's comments have been about acquiring post apex players, not getting rid of the ones we have, as well.

So, who is out there to acquire that is under 26 and isn't going to cost us young assets or draft picks? i guess the ideal profile would be a 25 year old that may be a bit overpaid, but still a solid player on a team dealing with cap pressure, that we can take off their hands for little or maybe even negative return and help them avoid any buyouts.

I think they're hoping for a Chicago-style RFA sell off where the Ladds, Bufs, Versteegs of the league become available. Probably wishful thinking.....

[JayP]

Originally Posted by Table 5

Which is why you sell him now when his value is at it's peak.

As good as he's played the last few years, he's not a guy to build around, and won't be that great in 3-4 years when we're ready to make some noise again. The Flames made their mistake not trading Iggy when he still had a decent return....looks like they are about to do it with Glencross too.

It's pretty clear that the Flames still buy into the delusional philosophy that "anything can happen in the playoffs". The goal is clearly still to sign some more 2nd tier free agents like Hudler/Wideman and try and scratch and claw our way into 8th.

To Feaster & Co, that's all you need to do to make some noise again. It's not the traditional definition of going into the playoffs as an established division winner that will take 3-4 years to get to.

The fact that Glencross was considered untouchable says all you need to know about Feaster's definition of post-apex. He still operates under the 90's logic that prime years are 28 to 31, ignoring the fact that the league is trending younger and prime scoring years are starting to happen during ages 23-27. You don't find those guys in free agency unfortunately.

[JayP]

Originally Posted by edslunch

I think they're hoping for a Chicago-style RFA sell off where the Ladds, Bufs, Versteegs of the league become available. Probably wishful thinking.....

Didn't Chicago only have to do that because Tallon screwed up and missed the qualifying offer deadline too?

Anyone have any idea who some RFAs that could be tough signs this off-season are?

[Da_Chief]

McGratton can stick around to create havoc with Aliu. Put them both on a line and tell em go hit (clean hits tho).

From the top 7 teams right now Philly would be a good candidate to trade with come draft time. They have enough young talent and they want to win now.

Right now sign Drew LeBlanc, Antione Laganiere
Our own prospect sign Arnold, Granlund, Hanowski, Ramage, Ramo, Brossiot.

Trades
Stl 1st, Giordano, 2014 2nd (pit 1st if need be) for their 1st. They drop about 10 spots get a top 4 physical dman they're after and likely a high 2nd round draft pick.

Cammalleri to NJ for their 1st. They have the cap room and Lou still wants to replace Parise (as reported yesterday, their 1st was in play for a forward). Cammi is still young and probably play much better with the likes of Ilya, Elias, Henrique etc.

Tanguay to Islanders for a 4th if he waives. They've got cap room and he can be a vet on a young team.

Stempniak for Klesla in Phx - They need scoring, they're familiar with him. They don't take on salary and give their young dmen a chance.

Draft:
Cal Pick - Jonathon Drouin
Phi Pick - Sean Monahan
NJ Pick - Anthony Mantha

UFAs to re-sign:
Brian McGratton - 1 year 600K (one of few who cares about his job right now, reward him)

RFAs to re-sign:
Mikael Backlund
Paul Byron
Akim Aliu
Lance Bouma
Greg Nemisz
TJ Brodie
Chris Butler
Chris Breen
Brady Lamb
Mark Cundari

UFAs to go after:
Nathan Horton - 2 year deal 12 mill (high but he needs an incentive)
Anton Khudobin - 2 years deal 7 mill (he'll be worthy)
Chris Summers - 2 year deal 2.2 mill (ready for NHL duty)

Lines
Sven-Backlund-Horton
Drouin-Monahan-Glencross
Hudler-Stajan-Horak
McGratton-Bouma-Jackman
Aliu

Klesla-Brodie
Wideman-Breen
Summers-Butler
Sarich

Khudobin
Ramo

Lotsa young guys to watch and develop. Grit, skill, youth upfront. D a work in progress. Probably in line for another top 10 pick but whatever there'll be plenty of things to watch for.

Laganiere-Reinhart-Hanowski
Jones-Street-Nemisz
Arnold-Granlund-LeBlanc
Ferland-Byron-Eddy
Elson-Howse

Cundari-Smith
Lamb-Martin
Wotherspoon-Ramage

Berra
Brossiot

Totalling:
27 forwards
12 D
5 G

6 contracts spots open.
Payroll ~47 million -> 17 mill in cap space

I don't think I went too crazy.
- 16 of 23 NHL players are already in the organization
- College players are teammates of our new prospects, so we might have a chance
- Horton is the big UFA but the other 2 aren't a crazy thought
- Cammi will will have value heading into this last year, so do-able I think
- Philly trade is probably the hardest thing to accomplish and even that is realistic I think

[Flash Walken]

Can we come up with a single player that would seem to match the undefined terms Feaster has used recently.

What player in the NHL is pre-apex and potentially a buyout candidate?

The only player I could think of that even sort of applies is Tyler Myers, but I don't think he gets bought out.

Seriously, who is Jay Feaster talking about when he says things like that?

[zukes]

Ideal plan, IMO.

Kipper retires which gives the Flames about $27 million in cap space assuming a $64 million cap.

Sign Horton, Clarkson and Bozek.

Flip the lowest 1st rounder to Philly for one of Schenn or Coutourier, they are screwed cap wise next year.

Use the likely high lottery pick for Drouin, MacKinnon or Jones if possible. If you get Jones, use the other pick for Bo Horvat, seriously, the guy is awesome.

I agree, re-sign Cervenka.

Get a couple solid defensive defensemen. Not Sarich or Regehr types, but good skating and physical, if useless offensively, defenseman.

Pipe dream, but that's where I would start.

[nfotiu]

Originally Posted by Table 5

Which is why you sell him now when his value is at it's peak.

As good as he's played the last few years, he's not a guy to build around, and won't be that great in 3-4 years when we're ready to make some noise again. The Flames made their mistake not trading Iggy when he still had a decent return....looks like they are about to do it with Glencross too.

I don't see how you can state as fact that Iginla's return 2-3 years ago would be way better than it is now. I just don't see team's lining up to give up much more than a first round pick for 3 years of a 32 year old Iginla at 7 million per year. Maybe a first and a B level prospect would have been out there, but I doubt a first and an A prospect would have been on the table. Pre-salary cap, sure. But you could probably get a fairly equivalent or better player for 7 million in Free agency. 7 million for 3 years and a first would already be scaring away a lot of GMs. Not to mention, Iginla might not have been as open to a trade at the time. His best return may well have been as a rental.

That doesn't have anything to do with Glencross's situation, as he has a much more friendly contract.

[drPepper1]

I hope he said Glencross is untouchable on the basis he approached him and Glencross said he wouldn't waive his NTC

[iamca]

I will jump off the Calgary Tower (need to fly back first) if we sign Nathan Horton for 2 years at $6M per!

That's ugly in every sense of the word. More power to Horton if he can fetch that somewhere on the open market, but I want the Flames to stay away from high priced free agents, especially those with a history of concussion or durability problems.

I don't like the Wideman, Cammy, or Tangs contracts, however let's not compound the problem by throwing more good money after bad.

[neo45]

Originally Posted by iamca

I will jump off the Calgary Tower (need to fly back first) if we sign Nathan Horton for 2 years at $6M per!

That's ugly in every sense of the word. More power to Horton if he can fetch that somewhere on the open market, but I want the Flames to stay away from high priced free agents, especially those with a history of concussion or durability problems.

I don't like the Wideman, Cammy, or Tangs contracts, however let's not compound the problem by throwing more good money after bad.

Why not? That 6 mil won't be spent elsewhere, we have no RW that are as good as him, and when the contract is running out he can be traded for assets

[Da_Chief]

Originally Posted by neo45

Why not? That 6 mil won't be spent elsewhere, we have no RW that are as good as him, and when the contract is running out he can be traded for assets

Exactly, next year is a write off then his 2nd year he can be traded for assets or help in a playoff run. He's not old.