Quebec Riots start up again

[peter12]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Tell me about it. I have been paying mine off for the past 7 years and have 3 more to go. If I knew then what I knew now, I would have gone in a different direction. I know people that took 2 years at college and make more than $100,000/year. University is for suckers.

How much did you take out, if you don't mind me asking?

[peter12]

If we really wanted to improve access to higher education for lower income students, we wouldn't be talking general tuition cuts across the board. We'd be talking special bursaries, and scholarships. The data shows that most students going to university come from the middle/upper middle classes anyway.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

Originally Posted by Makarov

Ok, but I think it provides some explanation why students are angry (which is the point of the thread): they are paying more (and likely are receiving less [in terms of the value of their degree.])

Now, perhaps the answer is that we should have less people attending universities and receiving post-secondary degrees. However, I think we should think long and hard about all of the consequences of that sort of decision.

It isn't about the decrease in value of their degree that they were arguing it is about the increase in cost to their already undervalued degree. I can understand some of the frustration, however I still think looking at it from a pragmatic standpoint the increase is so minuscule that spending time rioting/protesting over it is not worth it from a pure time/benefit standpoint. I am sure that the people there could make more in a part time job than the difference they were protesting about in the same amount of time.

[Maccalus]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

Honestly, if this is true (and not after x number of years from graduating high school, but right away) then I'm even more annoyed by this protest.

It was removed in alberta at least. I do not know about the rest of the country
http://studentaid.alberta.ca/before-...ou-contribute/

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

Honestly, if this is true (and not after x number of years from graduating high school, but right away) then I'm even more annoyed by this protest.

I think it has to do with Alberta student loans though - as well as they now don't count RRSPs as part of net worth.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by Maccalus

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]One other thing to consider is that cheaper tuition alone does not guarantee greater access to education. Subsidizing tuition solely from the taxpayer means that without major increases in education funding, fewer spots become available over time. This leads to increased competition for those fewer spots and less access for everyone as a whole.

Wait, isn't that a good thing? Shouldn't the competition for university positions be based on merit rather than finances?

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Mean Mr. Mustard

It isn't about the decrease in value of their degree that they were arguing it is about the increase in cost to their already undervalued degree. I can understand some of the frustration, however I still think looking at it from a pragmatic standpoint the increase is so minuscule that spending time rioting/protesting over it is not worth it from a pure time/benefit standpoint. I am sure that the people there could make more in a part time job than the difference they were protesting about in the same amount of time.

Nah, that would be too bourgeois.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

Oh goodie. Another Quebec-bashing thread on Calgarypuck.

Oh goodie another broad generalization, there was no Quebec bashing here, in fact I say good for the PQ government for realizing that their stupid promises on educational savings couldn't be realistically met. This is news it deserves a place of debate here and yes, there is a bit of gleeful bashing of a protest that really resembles an episode of friends, a protest about nothing.

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

Personally, I say good for them. I think more students should be standing up for more affordable education. I remember protesting with my student union for lower tuition and my professor at the time got a kick out of our protests. "You aren't going to get anywhere unless you are more militant in your demands. A nice quiet 'Please don't make education less accessible please Mr. Politician.' is useless'.

So your professor was advocating militant protests and possibly what violent protests? Theres a guy that belongs in the academic world.

$70.00 per year is not a wallet breaking increase, and isn't the difference between affordable and unaffordable tuition. With Quebec's incredibly cheap tuition, balanced by the fact that Quebec is running into a wall financially due to their over spending on elaborate social programs and policing languages somethings got to give and $70.00 is reasonable compared to the 30% increase that the previous government wanted to phase in.

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

Yes, Quebec already has the lowest tuition across the country. But not because their's is too low, but because everywhere else is way too high.

Or Quebec's is too low and too heavily subsidized and the costs increase every year.

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

High tuition prices have an incredibly harsh effect on the country:
http://www.cfs-fcee.ca/studentdebt/index.html

Ugh that article was almost written in crayon or on an etch a scetch

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

These students are not looking to live off the trough as "entitled brats". They are looking to get an education so they can get a good job.

Costs don't live in a bottle they increase every year and students are going to have to absorb a small percentage of that so forgive me for a lack of sympathy. What does the government absorb of the increased costs in wages and material at these universities compared to the students. $70.00 is a token amount. Suck it up and pay it.

There is guaranteed education in this country to a high school level, in a lot of ways post secondary which isn't mandatory is a privilege so that Students can invest in their future income potential as the government does, but that doesn't mean it should be free. Unless at some point future generations are punished when a free tuition model collapses the system.

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

As much as CC poo-poos this as "$70 a year", it's a 3% increase each year for the next 5 years. Most students won't be making 3% more each year for the next 5 years working at Provigo or whatever part time job they can get between classes. Which means more loans. And I think the concern of the student strikers is that if they speak out now and stop the increases, there is nothing to stop the situation there to be as bad as it is elsewhere in Canada.

Those increases are going to happen, protesting over a $1500 increase over three years maybe is relevant, walking around with your Ipod's and Iphones in your designer clothes bitching about a $70.00 increase is ridiculous and self entitled.

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

I know many parents that are PRAYING that their child is able to get some kind of scholarship because they know they cannot afford tuition costs here in Ontario. The only option then is starting your working career with a massive student debt.

A lot of us had to do that and pay it back, the benefit as increased career options, we invested in our futures and earned it.

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

I don't know if you remember my friend Evan who pied Chretien. He most certainly regrets that stunt.... not because of going to jail for the incident but because nobody knows that the reason he did it was because it was a protest against the high cost of education. I may not agree with his methods, but I do agree with his stance.

Your friend was respectfully ######ed., especially if nobody understood what his protests were about, maybe he should get a refund on his tuition because he's a moron.

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

Additional link:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/hi...dentloans.html

My belief is that everyone should be given an equal chance in life. And if the rich can afford the best schools, while the poor have the choice of not being educated or racking in massive debt on the lottery ticket of getting a good job, then the system is broken. I say good on the Quebec students for standing up whereas the students around the rest of the country meekly get walked all over.

I don't believe that there is an equal chance in life, when you hit the university age competition has to kick in, and flooding the schools with everyone getting free degrees isn't going to improve anything in limited job markets. There are so many teachers, lawyers and engineering positions out there. A utopian society where everyone has degrees would never ever work.

Not to sound unsympathetic, but giving someone something for completely free goes right to the entitlement issues that we're facing now.

If your not willing to suffer a bit for your future then maybe you've picked the wrong future.

Bashing Quebec? Nah, good on Quebec for at least making a token increase towards sanity, it should have been double or triple to keep the educational system sustainable.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by Mean Mr. Mustard

It isn't about the decrease in value of their degree that they were arguing it is about the increase in cost to their already undervalued degree. I can understand some of the frustration, however I still think looking at it from a pragmatic standpoint the increase is so minuscule that spending time rioting/protesting over it is not worth it from a pure time/benefit standpoint. I am sure that the people there could make more in a part time job than the difference they were protesting about in the same amount of time.

But there is a reason that Quebec has the lowest tuition rates in the country. So, in that respect, student groups and unions in Quebec, and their tactics, have been very successful, no?

[bomber317]

Originally Posted by Makarov

Ok, but I think it provides some explanation why students are angry (which is the point of the thread): they are paying more (and likely are receiving less [in terms of the value of their degree.])

Now, perhaps the answer is that we should have less people attending universities and receiving post-secondary degrees. However, I think we should think long and hard about all of the consequences of that sort of decision.

What's more valuable now?

A degree in the Arts/Philosophy/Lit/whatever else or becoming a journeyman in a trade?

You can't blanket cover all degrees under the same umbrella, nor can you blanket cover anybody that doesn't get a degree.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by peter12

How much did you take out, if you don't mind me asking?

To be honest, I can't remember the total amount. When I first went to university, my mother died in my 2nd year and my dad got cancer the same year so I dropped out. The loans from that period were through RBC and then were switched to CIBC, and somewhere along the line, the paper has been lost. But they are still on my bank account with money coming out every month.

It was about 6 years later, moved to BC and started university again but with a new major, The loans from that period are about $26,000. In total, if I were to estimate, I would guess that the total amount was around $35,000 or so.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

To be honest, I can't remember the total amount. When I first went to university, my mother died in my 2nd year and my dad got cancer the same year so I dropped out. The loans from that period were through RBC and then were switched to CIBC, and somewhere along the line, the paper has been lost. But they are still on my bank account with money coming out every month.

It was about 6 years later, moved to BC and started university again but with a new major, The loans from that period are about $26,000. In total, if I were to estimate, I would guess that the total amount was around $35,000 or so.

Ah, I'm sorry, FA. That sounds like a hard time. Good on you for finishing.

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by Maccalus

On this note, we focus way too much on forcing people to go to university in this country. There are many forms of post-secondary education from trade school to community college that would be way more useful to providing a strong workforce for our economy. Not everyone can or should go to university, but we need to ensure that if they choose to go that route and have the non-monetary entrance requirements that they should be able to.

Great Post. If a lot of these students saw the value proposition of how cheap their education is relative to the bump in earning potential of getting their education, than having tuition increase with inflation shouldn't lead them to rioting. Which leads me to the position that a lot of these students aren't taking degree programs that lead to being equiped to be in the real economy. They want to be able to take a degree program in what they're passionate about at a minimum cost to them and have a well-paying job on the other end. The reality is that the real world often doesn't value in dollars everone's optimal vocation. The problem might not be tuition costs or the economy but rather an expectation that the current student generation has that they can pursue anything they want in life and have a high standard of living. Ultimately tradeoffs need to be made.

Devil's Advocate has a point if the cost of education escalates above inflation. In this case though that is not what's on the table. You can't have it both ways where we all live in harmony and everyone's union job pays them wage increases that exceed inflation and then have the government take care of natural inflation on tuition, thereby making tutition essentially free over the course of time.

[Bertuzzied]

hhahahaha. what a bunch of idiots. Rioting over $70. they could have made $70 in the time it took for them to organize the riot.

what terrible people. Suck it up. everything goes up in life. I wonder if they would riot if they got a raise?

[Ozy_Flame]

I know a few people here in town that complain about paying off their student loans, but are usually always the ones going for beers at 5 o'clock and buying $10-15 lunch everyday. Then they wonder why their loans are taking forever to pay back.

I think tuition is high as it is, but I also think young Canadians need to be educated - thoroughly - on the importance of personal finance. That includes learning about consistent savings patterns, making investments, identifying tax breaks, and avoiding frivilous spending and credit card abuse.

$70 / year is not a big deal if people can just realize it's 1 or 2 less nights out with friends per year. And if my university life was any indication, going to the bar every Friday night (likely Thursdays and Saturdays as well) would be the first adjustment to make.

[polak]

Quebec.

Where people riot over a $70 increase to their already country-wide low tuition instead of going and working one single extra day to make it up. All the while filming the days events on $500 smart phones, in $200 jackets and probably going out after and spending $50 at a bar.

I'll gladly turn this into a Quebec bashing thread.

Selfish group of people.

[Bertuzzied]

The best thing is that they are prob too stupid to notice that their textbooks have gone up $200-$300 from the years before.

if you are going to riot at least riot over the right things. Post secondary textbooks pricing are a product of satan.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Bertuzzied

The best thing is that they are prob too stupid to notice that their textbooks have gone up $200-$300 from the years before.

if you are going to riot at least riot over the right things. Post secondary textbooks pricing are a product of satan.

Except the Internet finds a way.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

Oh goodie. Another Quebec-bashing thread on Calgarypuck.

Personally, I say good for them. I think more students should be standing up for more affordable education. I remember protesting with my student union for lower tuition and my professor at the time got a kick out of our protests. "You aren't going to get anywhere unless you are more militant in your demands. A nice quiet 'Please don't make education less accessible please Mr. Politician.' is useless'.

Yes, Quebec already has the lowest tuition across the country. But not because their's is too low, but because everywhere else is way too high.

High tuition prices have an incredibly harsh effect on the country:
http://www.cfs-fcee.ca/studentdebt/index.html

These students are not looking to live off the trough as "entitled brats". They are looking to get an education so they can get a good job.

As much as CC poo-poos this as "$70 a year", it's a 3% increase each year for the next 5 years. Most students won't be making 3% more each year for the next 5 years working at Provigo or whatever part time job they can get between classes. Which means more loans. And I think the concern of the student strikers is that if they speak out now and stop the increases, there is nothing to stop the situation there to be as bad as it is elsewhere in Canada.

I know many parents that are PRAYING that their child is able to get some kind of scholarship because they know they cannot afford tuition costs here in Ontario. The only option then is starting your working career with a massive student debt.

I don't know if you remember my friend Evan who pied Chretien. He most certainly regrets that stunt.... not because of going to jail for the incident but because nobody knows that the reason he did it was because it was a protest against the high cost of education. I may not agree with his methods, but I do agree with his stance.

Additional link:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/hi...dentloans.html

My belief is that everyone should be given an equal chance in life. And if the rich can afford the best schools, while the poor have the choice of not being educated or racking in massive debt on the lottery ticket of getting a good job, then the system is broken. I say good on the Quebec students for standing up whereas the students around the rest of the country meekly get walked all over.

If you can't afford school in Canada it is not because you are poor...it is because you are unwilling to work to afford the school and want it handed to you.

I only graduated two years ago from the UofC but paid for my entire tuition loan free by working part time during the school year and full time during the summer. I worked my tail off landscaping in the summer but it was more then worth it to get that education without needing handouts.

I didn't expect further handouts from the government, or any help from my parents outside of a place to live. I knew that I needed to work hard for my education.

Post secondary schooling is likely among the cheapest in the world in Quebec already, and they feel it is justified to riot over a small increase. http://www.cbc.ca/news/interactives/tuition-canada/

Good riddance and they deserve that treatment from the police.

[Bill Bumface]

Devil's Advocate, as a guy who payed for his own post secondary education, mostly by working at a greenhouse and a lumber yard, and finished school with ZERO debt, I smugly tell you to cram it. You don't understand what "affordable" means. Because my experience demonstrates the epitome of affordability.