GMs to discuss size of goalie equipment

[Kidder]

Just like any position in any sport the goaltender has evolved his game and his equipment to optimize his performance.

The difference being the goalie lacked so far behind his skating counterparts until the late 80's when the proper care and focus was delegated to the position. Before then it was pretty much put the crazy guy in net who was willing to stand infront of a frozen puck with inadequate protection.

No surprise this post arises after last night's display. Mike Smith is so large and technically sound it looks like he barely moves, and I agree it is frustrating from an opposing fan's perspective.

There's a lot of hypocrisy in the goaltender discussion now a days though. We have gotten accustomed to goalies being impenetrable and rip them apart on almost every goal that gets by. Perfect example, the final goal in our 5-2 loss to St. Louis. Perron cuts across the middle, using the defenceman as a screen and rips a wrister top corner just under the bar. "Mcdonald needs to have that one."

We all adopt the philosophy that our team should be able to score more goals with greater ease... but our goalie better not let any more in.

Is goalie equipment too large? Yes. You could certainly trim off inches on every piece of equipment and still leave the goaltender fully protected.

But the bigger key is keeping a handle on obstruction. Nothing wrong with a fantastic goaltenders duel. As long as the offense is able to generate quality chances and force the goaltender to make athletic saves it makes for good hockey. Goals don't necessarily = more excitement. A tight, back and forth 3-2 game is far more entertaining than a 9-4 game.

I'm shocked Cowperson hasn't appeared in this thread yet to share his statistic how historically the NHL has operated with an average GPG of 5.5. Change the game or goalies as you like, it always finds a way back to the mark.

The future of the game is 6'5" masked men with incredible fitness and flexibility using the largest sized equipment they are allowed. That's inevitable. It need not ruin the game though. Offenses will need to adapt and expose the weaknesses. Something the Flames did a poor job of doing last night.

[calgaryred]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Goalies are the most protected and safest players in the game.

I also hate the idea of making nets bigger though. It's not like the goalie's height or length of body or limbs is the issue. Making it more difficult to reach with the glove or blocker doesn't accomplish anything except possibly causing goalies to strain their muscles more.

I agree, I remember back in the early 90's when rollerhockey was the new thing. They tried to create a summer league for hockey fans that miss the game after the NHL season. I couldn't follow it because they made the nets bigger, still remember scores like 15 to 8. More goals don't mean a better game, I do think that the goalies abuse their equipment to gain advantage and that needs to be addressed.

[zunie75]

As a goalie, I guess im biased. I wear the regulated sized gear and actually prefer my gear to be smaller and therefore less bulky. But with the talent the players have now and their ability to shoot the puck lighting fast and hard (not on me but in the NHL etc), reducing size further will lead to injuries.

Because i wear smaller gear, I leave spots open where I definitely feel the puck or had some hard shots hit me wrong. My ribs and knees for example.

On the flip side and what you guys and the league needs to realize is that even if you reduce the size, these guys are talented. With in a season they will adapt to what ever they are wearing and goal scoring will go down again.

When your talking about how scoring has dropped since the 80's, realize that more of it has to do with the style of goal tending and the general talent level dramatically increasing.

talented players are going to score. Do we really want to reduce pad size and increase injury risk, just to give the 4th liners a better shot at getting a couple more goals a year?

Some of you say chest protectors are to big.... I'm sorry, throw on a large one and a small one and you'll find out that it doesn't make the biggest difference in your game play. If your worth the price you paid to get your skates sharpened, your going to get your angle down and take that puck in the crest no matter what your wearing. Unless the shooter actually takes a good shot and tries to go top corner.

But just because a guy cant do anything usefull with the puck except put a lazy shot into a goalies chest because said goalie is playing the angle correctly, Why should the goalie have to wear a smaller less protective piece of equipment?

If we are constantly allowing the skaters to have new sticks to increase their shot ability, goalie gear will have to keep up with it.

They tried this reduction in size before. The effects were felt immediately. Then what happened? Goalies adapted and started putting up amazing numbers again.

Besides, goalies who wear large gear to mask their inability to compete at the NHL level, eventually get exposed for the hacks that they are.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by zunie75

But just because a guy cant do anything usefull with the puck except put a lazy shot into a goalies chest because said goalie is playing the angle correctly, Why should the goalie have to wear a smaller less protective piece of equipment?

As a few of us have pointed out, smaller does not necessarily equate to less protection. These guys could be wearing form fitted kevlar plates that barely take up more room than their naked bodied would and be perfectly protected. Now no body is advocating that extreme but you can see the point.

Are you telling me that the cuff part of this glove couldnt be curved to form fit the wrist more while providing the same protection?


or that pads that extend almost to a players waistline can't be made shorter and the protection supplemented by a knee cap that protects an exposed area when a goalie goes down? Roberto Luongo is not 4 feet wide, why does his chest protector have to be?

[zunie75]

Originally Posted by MattyC

As a few of us have pointed out, smaller does not necessarily equate to less protection. These guys could be wearing form fitted kevlar plates that barely take up more room than their naked bodied would and be perfectly protected. Now no body is advocating that extreme but you can see the point.

Are you telling me that the cuff part of this glove couldnt be curved to form fit the wrist more while providing the same protection?


or that pads that extend almost to a players waistline can't be made shorter and the protection supplemented by a knee cap that protects an exposed area when a goalie goes down? Roberto Luongo is not 4 feet wide, why does his chest protector have to be?

Don't get me wrong, all of these things could be changed. And maybe no injuries happen. Goals will go up for sure. But my point is that the better goalies in the league will adapt.

I'm not arguing from a goalies point a view now, but just based on what I have seen since the lock out. If we went and changed pad sizes tomorrow. Yes goalies would struggle right out of the gates. And maybe the older guys would struggle the rest of their careers.

But what about the guys who come into the league in the next couple years? They will get used to that new smaller form fitting gear and they will put up good numbers once again.

My point is, you can change the gear as much as you want, but its not going to change the game in any long term way. If anything it'll hurt the game. If the size reduction causes current goalies to be giving up a lot more goals, then coaches are going to switch from offensive hockey to boring defense styles.

The best goalies are going to continue to be the best goalies no matter what you do. Look at Brodeur for example. Now look at Giguere. One of them continues to excel and has always had small gear. The other is now only a back up goalie.

Did exposing Giguere as a fraud really make the game better? And when you look at his numbers, since his giant anaheim days...they didnt change all that much.


As a note on the cuff of the glove your talking about...changing that will only hurt us beer leaguers. An NHL goalie is not relying on that part to make a glove save. If he has to make a freak save and flails and it hits that cuff, so be it. How often does that actually happen. Your talking about changing a peice of equipment which will result in just a few more goals going in a year.

Any goalie who is angled right, positioned right, has their glove where its supposed to be, will catch that puck. Not take it off the wrist.

[vektor]

with the crazy composite sticks and the deadly shots from guys like Weber and Chara it may be a bad idea. Drastically reducing the pads could get a goalie seriously injured

[Anduril]

It's more so the flow of the game that makes it exciting or not for me. Having more goals scored just devalues goal scoring in general because while it'll be interesting to see more celebrations and back and forth play being reflect on the score board, we'll eventually become desensitized.

The joy on the face of somebody like Begin scoring on Sunday is a real treat in itself.

[Coach]

I agree with you Zunie that players and goalies will adapt no matter what. Every year the players get better and that includes goalies, but thats really beside the point. Any change made to the game, no matter how large or small, will be adapted to at some point, but that doesn't negate the need for it. And you never know, maybe you expose some guys that were riding the advantage and didn't deserve their place, talent wise. And if they can so easily adapt there wouldn't be any type of outrage from goaltenders.

Also on the opposite side of the coin, players will adapt too. They will adapt to new holes and angles to score from.

Now, I don't think there is an issue where scoring needs to go up. I just think a lot of the equipment is unnecessary. Can a defenseman have a big plastic wing coming out his side so he's harder to go around? No. If people don't like the way the game is paced or the amount of scoring involved there are plenty of other sports to pique their interest. Basketball has each team make about 50 "scores" per game. If you think thats exciting then go enjoy.

[doctajones428]

Originally Posted by puckluck2

If they ever change the size of nets I will be very tempted to not watch the NHL again.

Good. Hopefully that means you stop posting here too

[zunie75]

Originally Posted by MattyC

I agree with you Zunie that players and goalies will adapt no matter what. Every year the players get better and that includes goalies, but thats really beside the point. Any change made to the game, no matter how large or small, will be adapted to at some point, but that doesn't negate the need for it. And you never know, maybe you expose some guys that were riding the advantage and didn't deserve their place, talent wise. And if they can so easily adapt there wouldn't be any type of outrage from goaltenders.

Also on the opposite side of the coin, players will adapt too. They will adapt to new holes and angles to score from.

Now, I don't think there is an issue where scoring needs to go up. I just think a lot of the equipment is unnecessary. Can a defenseman have a big plastic wing coming out his side so he's harder to go around? No. If people don't like the way the game is paced or the amount of scoring involved there are plenty of other sports to pique their interest. Basketball has each team make about 50 "scores" per game. If you think thats exciting then go enjoy.

Definitely true. The only reason I argue this point is that I think fans and useless players want size changes because they have personal grudges going, like after last nights game for example. The "lets find and excuse for losing" game.

Because the goalies will adapt, a different solution to increase scoring (if you believe that leads to increased entertainment) is needed. The only fair way to do that is unfortunately the most impossible one, and that's go to Olympic sized ice. Which would allow for more creativity and room with the puck.

I think goalies are very reluctant to decrease size in part because of legitimate injury concerns (there only a small population of people in the world who can tell you what an NHLers slap shot feels like, so i'm more likely to listen to them voice their concern about injuries than I am a guy who has never strapped on the pads) and another part is I think they just don't like "being picked on", being the guys with the most responsibility on the ice but constantly being told they have to change.

[Coach]

well to be fair, the goalies are the ones who have been changing equipment. The league is the one trying to keep it under control.

Remember this?

[Rhettzky]

They talked about doing it in 2008 and had a three year plan with Kay Whitmore as the coordinator for all the planned changes. It stopped after the first year. I really think they needed to implement the other years which included smaller pants, smaller chest protectors, standard sizes for gloves and blockers and changes to the pads. Here was some info from back then...

http://forum.calgarypuck.com/showthread.php?t=74356

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Kidder

Just like any position in any sport the goaltender has evolved his game and his equipment to optimize his performance.

No. It's not like other sports.

Other sports have very strict rules on equipment that constantly keep up and change with technology. A boxer isn't allowed to use whatever gloves he chooses, a baseball player can't use a corked or aluminium bat, the size of their glove is strictly controlled, etc... this isn't a case of a slightly better running shoe.

The NHLs current regulations are a disgrace, and it's not just the goalie equipment. The skaters need to stop wearing hard plastic pads on their shoulder and elbows. It's been proven that these contribute little to no protection, but substantially increase the risk of injury to players receiving hits from them.

The NHL can vigilantly monitor the curve of a stick down to the nearest millimetre, but can't do the same for goalie or player pads?

[sketchyt]

I'm a goalie as well and while I'm in slight favour of some rule changes, I don't know where you would reduce the size from.

I wear a pro-level chest protector and take shots from your average beer leaguer. They don't hurt but you do feel them. Occasionally, I've taken shots from college level players and former NHL'ers and I swear when they hit you with even a wrist shot, it feels like they are going to go through you.

To a large degree, I think a lot of these guys wear the gear for protection. I think it's insane for goalies like Kipper and Brodeur to purposely wear less protection to get more mobility.

For example, Kipper has a shortened cuff at the base of his catcher. His game catcher also feels thinned out at the palm. Doesn't seem to hurt his play a whole lot. His pad size (at least eyeballing it closeup) looks to be well short of the maximum allowed lengthwise. Brodeur wears 10.5" wide pads and only recently changed his ghetto chest protector. Osgood's upper body was frequently pelted with bruises.

I think, with the way modern goaltending is going, mobility is king. Guys are getting away from the pure blocking butterfly style of the past as shooters, composite sticks and increased speed of the game have adapted to the Garth Snows of this world.

For the typical NHL starter, I think a majority of the changes will be met with a shoulder shrug, maybe some fake outrage and, ultimately, scoring will not increase. It may thin out some of the guys wearing oversized gear, but those guys are playing the minority of games. So in that sense, I wouldn't mind some rule changes to get those guys out of the league. A guy like McElhinney wore some pretty large gear but I don't see him in the NHL anyways.

The only place I can think where you could reduce the size of gear would be the pants. I remember reading somewhere that Manny Legace would wear a XXXL despite being 5'9. Perhaps another spot would be the elbow blocks and shoulder floaters, but I don't see those changes having a massive effect on scoring, if any at all.... especially when you're 6'4, have lightning quick reflexes, excellent vision and ridiculous skating ability.

[GrrlGoalie33]

Originally Posted by sketchyt

Brodeur wears 10.5" wide pads and only recently changed his ghetto chest protector. Osgood's upper body was frequently pelted with bruises.

His chest protector was something held up with only duct tape, and was finally forced to replace it last year. He went through probably a dozen different ones before settling on the one he has now. GSBB loved playing the "which C/A is Brodeur wearing now" game.

Originally Posted by sketchyt

Perhaps another spot would be the elbow blocks and shoulder floaters, but I don't see those changes having a massive effect on scoring, if any at all.... especially when you're 6'4, have lightning quick reflexes, excellent vision and ridiculous skating ability.

For the love of God, not elbow floaters! I take nasty shots off of there that still hurt!

All NHL goalie equipment has to be approved by Kay Whitmore before it can be used in league play. Also any goalie is subject to spot checks at any time during the season, so I can't imagine many of them use illegal equipment.

[jaydub74]

I'm not sure if its been discussed, although not related to goalie equipment maybe the NHL should look at making it illegal for players to lay on the ice. If the NHL wants to increase goal scoring preventing players from laying flat on the ice maybe the solution. I'm not saying players can't block shots by standing in front of the shooter, just no more flopping or skidding on their stomach in front if shots. If you look back in the 80s and earlier players blocked a lot fewer shots creating more passing lanes and more scoring opportunities.

[Diemenz]

Originally Posted by jaydub74

I'm not sure if its been discussed, although not related to goalie equipment maybe the NHL should look at making it illegal for players to lay on the ice. If the NHL wants to increase goal scoring preventing players from laying flat on the ice maybe the solution. I'm not saying players can't block shots by standing in front of the shooter, just no more flopping or skidding in front if shots. If you look back in the 80s and earlier players blocked a lot fewer shots creating more passing lanes and more scoring opportunities.

I started playing hockey in the 80's. There was no were near enough padding for me to get in front of a Atom players shot back then. When I was playing in college I always jumped in front of pucks, if you faced the shot the only scary place to take the puck was your stomach or neck.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by zunie75

Because the goalies will adapt, a different solution to increase scoring (if you believe that leads to increased entertainment) is needed. The only fair way to do that is unfortunately the most impossible one, and that's go to Olympic sized ice. Which would allow for more creativity and room with the puck.

Larger ice will actually decrease scoring. People like Dave King that have coached in Europe would argue against larger ice. Logically, it would seem that more room might result in more scoring chances. However, simple geometry tells us that when you have further to travel, there will be less chances.

Compare the number of scoring chances in indoor soccer to outdoor soccer.

[sketchyt]

Originally Posted by Frankster

For the love of God, not elbow floaters! I take nasty shots off of there that still hurt!

Haha, yeah maybe not those. I was more talking about the width of them. I've seen some pretty wide ones.

I suppose one way you could manufacture scoring off goalies would be to somehow change the face of the pads. Speaking in generalities, a lot of pads are flat faced, very stiff and rocket rebounds safely to non-danger areas (i.e. Luongo, Rinne...). Others wear pads that are softer but made to leave safe/predictable rebounds in front of goalies that are quick to cover (i.e. Kipper, Quick).

Don't know how you would do it or even standardize it, but maybe they could limit the type of materials used in pads so that rebounds are less predictable for the goaltender. Or perhaps change the face of the pad like reducing the shape of the outer roll.

[Matty81]

I'm all for getting rid of the marshmellow men, but if they're going to reduce the goalie equipment size, get rid of the composite sticks too in the name of fairness.

Those sticks are an absolute joke at the pro level. It's the equivalent of baseball allowing metal bats (or something that the ball bounces even harder off of).

The current NHL administration, between the shootout, all the expansion and the constant rule changes has no respect for the history of the game. They'd do anything for a couple more bucks. In ten years the players will be carrying around puck guns or something.