Chemical Weapon used in Syria, Western military response likely

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by blankall

However, to say they are Western backed is a pretty big stretch. So far most of their weapons seem to be taken from the Syrian army or provided by fundamentalist groups from outside the region, with the majority being weapons stolen from the army or brough by defectors from the Syrian army.

I'm sure the Western powers would love to have Assad step down, but they aren't at the point where they are supplying the rebels with heavy amounts of weapons yet.

No, its not really a stretch. Here you have the FSA based in Turkey (NATO member), while being funded and supplied by Saudi Arabia, Qatar and other M.E. monarchies friendly to Britain and America. America of course claims they are only making monetary contributions. The new Libyan Sharia law regime has also sent fighters/weapons to the FSA. These monarchies supporting the insurgency are not democratic whatsoever. It's funny because at the onset of the Arab Spring, you had real protests in Bahrain, Saudi Arabia etc. but they were snuffed out with force ..Democratic? No Hypocritical? Yes.

The U.S. has had Syrian regime change on the table for more than a decade, they just need a pretext like with Iraq and Libya.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

No, its not really a stretch. Here you have the FSA based in Turkey (NATO member), while being funded and supplied by Saudi Arabia, Qatar and other M.E. monarchies friendly to Britain and America. America of course claims they are only making monetary contributions. The new Libyan Sharia law regime has also sent fighters/weapons to the FSA. These monarchies supporting the insurgency are not democratic whatsoever. It's funny because at the onset of the Arab Spring, you had real protests in Bahrain, Saudi Arabia etc. but they were snuffed out with force ..Democratic? No Hypocritical? Yes.

The U.S. has had Syrian regime change on the table for more than a decade, they just need a pretext like with Iraq and Libya.

The USA is not responsible nor do they encourage the Saudi Arabians to fund wahhabist groups. In fact, the insurgents that the USA is fighting in Afghanistan largely get their funding from these groups.

[burn_this_city]

What's this sharia law regime in Libya nonsense? Such a buzzword which means little considering most middle east countries have some form of sharia law. The democratically elected government in Libya is liberal by their standards, and the electorate largely shunned the Islamist parties.

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Because Bashar Al Assad has been so caring of civilians with the use of fighter bombers and helicopter gun ships firing into civilian buildings and dropping cluster bombs on refugees, and having tanks firing at any building that comes within main gun range. Unless your saying that the clearly marked helicopters and jets are actually U.S. piloted knockoffs or rebel flown bombers.

Absolutely there are Al-Queda based rebel groups involved, that's one of the reason why there is no consensus command structure, however you are insane if your saying that the masses of civilian protesters are all actors that recently graduated from the Actors studio.

If the Rebels had chemical weapons they would have used them a long time ago in a so called false flag operation when their offensive had ground to a halt. Now the threat has come up when their offensive has been very succesful. They don't really need foreign troops on the ground right now as they are winning this rebellion and seizing military bases outside of the capital. The chemical weapons represent the Syrian Governements last ace in the hole and its a desparation gamble.

Right now the Rebels won't want foreign troops on the ground if they're intent on installing a radical Islamic government with leanings towards Sharia Law implementation.

The FSA insurgency doesn't stand a chance against the Syrian military without the Al-Qaeda and affiliated groups.

Your underestimation of Bashar al Assad is astounding. So you think that a guy educated in London would use his military recklessly against civilians in the face of intense worldwide political pressure? That doesn't seem like a good tactical move knowing the hair-trigger nature of the U.S. and NATO.

I'm not saying Assad is not using heavy weapons, but he is most likely using them as smartly as possible. The refugees are fleeing from towns where the Al-Qaeda/FSA rebels take over, and after most of them leave the Syrian troops engage the rebels.

Your article from the Guardian, was 3 eye witness accounts from unnamed individuals affiliated to the UN or one of those NGO's. In other words, they have next to no credibility and a heavy bias.

I have not seen any footage of mass civilian protests in Syria since the first month of the so called democratic uprising, but I have seen just as many, if not more pro-Assad rallies. I don't think Syrians want to be bombed into the stone age by the NATO/UN like they did in Libya.

You're right about the FSA/Al-Qaeda troops not needing foreign troops from the west though, all they need is some air support like in Libya.

You see in order for the UN to invoke the "Responsibility to Protect" doctrine, they need a good catastrophe or some kind of human crisis to provide a solid pretext. Chemical weapons will be used, but it won't be Assad using them on his own people.

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Please show me the links to these articles because the overwhelming evidence points to the Army and pro government Shabi militia members perpetrating the slaughter. What makes this more of a pile of BS is that the UN observers were bared from investigating this slaughter by the Syrian military to the point that the UN observers came under small arms fire. This was all reported to the UN Secretary General.

When the observers finally reached the village the bodies had been removed and witnesses stated that it was the same Shabi militia members who had carted off the bodies after the slaughter

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18352281

http://english.alarabiya.net/article...07/219098.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012...iamen-massacre

I want to see these articles from you, I want to see how legitimate the reports are, because the UN reports and the above state that your full of it.

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner...john-rosenthal#


http://mobile.bloomberg.com/news/201...2Fexclusive%2F

"According to the article’s sources, the massacre occurred after rebel forces attacked three army-controlled roadblocks outside of Houla. The roadblocks had been set up to protect nearby Alawi majority villages from attacks by Sunni militias. The rebel attacks provoked a call for reinforcements by the besieged army units. Syrian army and rebel forces are reported to have engaged in battle for some 90 minutes, during which time “dozens of soldiers and rebels” were killed.
“According to eyewitness accounts,” the FAZ report continues,

the massacre occurred during this time. Those killed were almost exclusively from families belonging to Houla’s Alawi and Shia minorities. Over 90% of Houla’s population are Sunnis. Several dozen members of a family were slaughtered, which had converted from Sunni to Shia Islam. Members of the Shomaliya, an Alawi family, were also killed, as was the family of a Sunni member of the Syrian parliament who is regarded as a collaborator. Immediately following the massacre, the perpetrators are supposed to have filmed their victims and then presented them as Sunni victims in videos posted on the internet.

"Already at the beginning of April, Mother Agnès-Mariam de la Croix of the St. James Monastery warned of rebel atrocities’ being repackaged in both Arab and Western media accounts as regime atrocities. She cited the case of a massacre in the Khalidiya neighborhood in Homs. According to an account published in French on the monastery’s website, rebels gathered Christian and Alawi hostages in a building in Khalidiya and blew up the building with dynamite. They then attributed the crime to the regular Syrian army. “Even though this act has been attributed to regular army forces . . . , the evidence and testimony are irrefutable: It was an operation undertaken by armed groups affiliated with the opposition,” Mother Agnès-Mariam wrote."

[mikey_the_redneck]

I've posted these several times.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...an-rebels.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...ion-group.html

"Abdulhakim Belhadj, head of the Tripoli Military Council and the former leader of the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group, "met with Free Syrian Army leaders in Istanbul and on the border with Turkey," said a military official working with Mr Belhadj. "Mustafa Abdul Jalil (the interim Libyan president) sent him there."

"At the meeting, which was held in Istanbul and included Turkish officials, the Syrians requested "assistance" from the Libyan representatives and were offered arms, and potentially volunteers."

"The Telegraph has also learned that preliminary discussions about arms supplies took place when members of the Syrian National Council [SNC] – the country's main opposition movement – visited Libya earlier this month.

"The Libyans are offering money, training and weapons to the Syrian National Council," added Wisam Taris, a human rights campaigner with links to the SNC."

...here the New York Times talks a bit about where the weapons come from, and then they act like the good ol' CIA is there to" keep weapons out of the hands of fighters allied with Al Qaeda or other terrorist groups."

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/21/wo...pagewanted=all&


"The weapons, including automatic rifles, rocket-propelled grenades, ammunition and some antitank weapons, are being funneled mostly across the Turkish border by way of a shadowy network of intermediaries including Syria’s Muslim Brotherhood and paid for by Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Qatar, the officials said."

"The Obama administration has said it is not providing arms to the rebels, but it has also acknowledged that Syria’s neighbors would do so."

[Azure]

Originally Posted by blankall

To be fair to Mikey, there is a little bit of truth here. The rebels aren't nearly as pure as they are made out to be. They've been responsibel for several incidents of high civilian casualties. There are also definitely elements of fundamentalism in their ranks.

However, to say they are Western backed is a pretty big stretch. So far most of their weapons seem to be taken from the Syrian army or provided by fundamentalist groups from outside the region, with the majority being weapons stolen from the army or brough by defectors from the Syrian army.

I'm sure the Western powers would love to have Assad step down, but they aren't at the point where they are supplying the rebels with heavy amounts of weapons yet.

This.

I find the whole situation sad as well, but it would be a colossal boondoogle if the US invaded.

There is no good end to any of this. Based on that I don't agree on sending Canadian troops over there outside of a very limited support role.

[FlameOn]

Unconfirmed reports that Assads forces are spraying poison gases in rebel held regions
http://blogs.aljazeera.com/topic/syr...dics-there-say

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by FlameOn

Unconfirmed reports that Assads forces are spraying poison gases in rebel held regions
http://blogs.aljazeera.com/topic/syr...dics-there-say

If that's true, I don't think that even Russia can continue to support him (and Russia will support almost any dastardly country).

[chemgear]

http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/19/world/...html?hpt=hp_t1

U.S. official: 'High probability' Syria used chemical weapon

[Mike F]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

This is Western war propaganda. I remember how they fabricated a bunch of so called evidence that Iraq was making WMD's.

Bashar Al Assad has no interest in using chemical weapons on civilians. It would be downright ######ed from a strategic standpoint. Assad is well aware that NATO/USA are drooling at the chance for military intervention and regime change. He knows they have to take him out to get at Iran.

There is no "popular uprising" against Assad. This is a western backed insurgency and many of the "rebels" are foreign fundamentalist Al-Qaeda types from Libya, Saudi Arabia etc. They want to install Sharia law there, just like in Libya.

I'm going to call it right here. The rebels themselves will probably use a chemical weapon acquired from their NATO sponsors or Libya to stage an attack on civilians and blame it on Assad, which will provide the pretext for military force.

They already tried to pull a false flag incident with the Homs massacre. The rebels killed a bunch of innocents and tried to blame it on Assad, ....but unfortunately some of the European media called their bluff and questioned it.

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

No, its not really a stretch. Here you have the FSA based in Turkey (NATO member), while being funded and supplied by Saudi Arabia, Qatar and other M.E. monarchies friendly to Britain and America. America of course claims they are only making monetary contributions. The new Libyan Sharia law regime has also sent fighters/weapons to the FSA. These monarchies supporting the insurgency are not democratic whatsoever. It's funny because at the onset of the Arab Spring, you had real protests in Bahrain, Saudi Arabia etc. but they were snuffed out with force ..Democratic? No Hypocritical? Yes.

The U.S. has had Syrian regime change on the table for more than a decade, they just need a pretext like with Iraq and Libya.

If I followed you in this thread, the US, via the CIA, and its NATO allies have teamed up with Al Qaeda to massacre and use chemical weapons against the Syrian people for the purpose of bringing about the US' long time goal of ousting the Assad regime and replacing it with a Sharia government?

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Mike F

If I followed you in this thread, the US, via the CIA, and its NATO allies have teamed up with Al Qaeda to massacre and use chemical weapons against the Syrian people for the purpose of bringing about the US' long time goal of ousting the Assad regime and replacing it with a Sharia government?

I think your missing the involvement of the reverse vampires who sparkle at night

[CaptainCrunch]

I think people fail to realize that arming and firing a rocket or artillery based chemical weapon is much more difficult then just aiming and firing.

That's why military's have specialists that are responsible for maintaining and firing these horrendously dangerous weapons.

Beyond the fact that there are several safety features that need to be followed, just the transportation alone is not easy. On top of that you have to have an awareness of weather features so you don't gas your own troops.

I find it unlikely that the Syrian rebels who are still struggling with basics like command and control would have the capabilities and the weapons to deploy.

+ Syria's government is the only ones that would benefit from chemical weapons, they don't care about world opinion. If the Syrian's used chemical weapons, they would lose their good standing around the world that gives them aid, money from other states and weapons.

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Syria's government is the only ones that would benefit from chemical weapons, they don't care about world opinion. If the Syrian's used chemical weapons, they would lose their good standing around the world that gives them aid, money from other states and weapons.

What a load of BS.

Syria does not need its chemical weapons to defeat the Sunni extremist rebels.

Knowing that the US has declared the use of chemical weapons as a "red line not to be crossed", you think Assad (London educated) is strategically ######ed enough to use such weapons against the rebels? That is preposterous.

The success of the rebels has stalled. They are being defeated. In order for the western agenda to be fulfilled, they are taking a bold step in trying to frame up the Assad regime for this chemical weapon "attack"....even though it looks like some kind of a small scale homemade chemical weapon that was used rather than a missile.

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by Mike F

If I followed you in this thread, the US, via the CIA, and its NATO allies have teamed up with Al Qaeda to massacre and use chemical weapons against the Syrian people for the purpose of bringing about the US' long time goal of ousting the Assad regime and replacing it with a Sharia government?

No.
Sharia law is what the Syrian people will be facing after Assad is out. Perhaps some of the different religous groups will face genocide. They will install a muslim brotherhood stooge to just sit by while Israel/America move to take down Iran.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

What a load of BS.

Syria does not need its chemical weapons to defeat the Sunni extremist rebels.

Knowing that the US has declared the use of chemical weapons as a "red line not to be crossed", you think Assad (London educated) is strategically ######ed enough to use such weapons against the rebels? That is preposterous.

The success of the rebels has stalled. They are being defeated. In order for the western agenda to be fulfilled, they are taking a bold step in trying to frame up the Assad regime for this chemical weapon "attack"....even though it looks like some kind of a small scale homemade chemical weapon that was used rather than a missile.

Do you follow the conflict at all?

The rebels are gaining new positions every day. The conflict is spreading further and further into new cities and Assad's strongholds. The rebels are on the verge of receiving heavy military supplies from Europe.

There's not enough evidence to point the finger at either party yet (or even show that there was indeed a chemical attack), but your reasoning is way off.

[Canuck-Hater]

nm

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

What a load of BS.

Syria does not need its chemical weapons to defeat the Sunni extremist rebels.

Knowing that the US has declared the use of chemical weapons as a "red line not to be crossed", you think Assad (London educated) is strategically ######ed enough to use such weapons against the rebels? That is preposterous.

The success of the rebels has stalled. They are being defeated. In order for the western agenda to be fulfilled, they are taking a bold step in trying to frame up the Assad regime for this chemical weapon "attack"....even though it looks like some kind of a small scale homemade chemical weapon that was used rather than a missile.

You're logic does not work in the real world where the rebels have fought Syria's army to at a minimum a stand still, at best they are gaining ground and taking arms and weapons depots.

There is no logic in the rebels using chemical weapons, the Syrian government who is not in a position to win against this rebellion has hit desperation territory, especially considering that El Presidente if he loses will probably be hung by a lamp post.

Your conspiracy theories in this case are convoluted and stupid and have no anchor in the real world.

You also clearly have no concept of how complex chemical weapons are to use and fire.

Not everything is a false flag, or a illuminati conspiracy or an evil plot by the CIA which if you actually read their history has been one of the most incompetent spy agencies since about the 60's.

Your theory my friend is BS, makes no sense, has no grounding in strategic intent or reality.

[undercoverbrother]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-22773268

There is no doubt Syria's government has used sarin during the country's crisis, says France's foreign minister.
Laurent Fabius said lab tests in Paris confirmed numerous uses of the nerve agent, adding that those who resort to chemical weapons must be punished.
But he did not specify where or when the agent had been deployed; the White House has said more proof was needed.

[CaptainCrunch]

Yikes, that's a major escalation if true, and leaves the Russians holding a very uncomfortable bag.

Nato forces don't dicern Nuclear, Biological and Chemical weapons, nor does the UN, they are all classed as weapons of mass destruction.

Sarin is a particularly evil weapon, and it causes a very ugly death.