Iraq war resister Kimberly Rivera ordered deported to U.S.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

can you expand on that please?

There are things in the military like compassionate re-assignments or compassionate leave. I think the Air Force calls them humanitarian assignments or something.

Essentially it is a request for an alternate assignment, temporary leave or an eventual separation from active service. There are different criteria to meet, and they can't really give them out willy nilly, but it's possible.

There are also temporary medical deferments and general applications for re-assignment, hardship discharges and transfers from active duty into the reserves and national guard.

I'm not a military lawyer, but I know these deferments are easier to get for females as women don't fill active combat roles.

Edit: and I just realized you were in the military at one point.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

There are things in the military like compassionate re-assignments or compassionate leave. I think the Air Force calls them humanitarian assignments or something.

Essentially it is a request for an alternate assignment, temporary leave or an eventual separation from active service. There are different criteria to meet, and they can't really give them out willy nilly, but it's possible.

There are also temporary medical deferments and general applications for re-assignment, hardship discharges and transfers from active duty into the reserves and national guard.

I'm not a military lawyer, but I know these deferments are easier to get for females as women don't fill active combat roles.

Thanks.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

My father was a military deserter and was granted asylum in Canada, and for that I am thankful. It was a bit different though as he was conscripted and served in a corrupt and inhumane communist dictatorship.

We have somewhat similar stories. My grandfather was drafted into the Csar's Russian army in the early 1900's. He decided he didn't want to go so he used his step-brother's Canadian visa papers (his step-brother had changed his mind about coming to Canada) to get into Canada (he entered Canada under his step-brother's name). So my family history is that I have a draft dodger and an illegal alien for a grandfather.

My father and his two brothers rehabilitated the family name though. They all fought for Canada in WWII and my father stayed in the military (Air Force) til he retired at age 50.

[Jordan!]

Pretty sure nobody forced her to join the armed forces..

[rubecube]

I'm gonna Godwin this thread by assuming you would all expect anyone who voluntarily joined the German army during WWII, and deserted because they disagreed with the war, to have been deported back to Germany and tried?

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by rubecube

I'm gonna Godwin this thread by assuming you would all expect anyone who voluntarily joined the German army during WWII, and deserted because they disagreed with the war, to have been deported back to Germany and tried?

So you are comparing German to the United States?

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

So you are comparing German to the United States?

Not in genocidal terms, but they did invade a foreign country without provocation and on the foundations of several lies. In a legal sense, the occupation of Iraq violated the same international laws as the occupation of Poland.

Should we honestly expect soldiers to remain commited to an army they no longer agree with? Isn't this how dictatorships succeed?

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Not in genocidal terms, but they did invade a foreign country without provocation and on the foundations of several lies. In a legal sense, the occupation of Iraq violated the same international laws as the occupation of Poland.

Should we honestly expect soldiers to remain commited to an army they no longer agree with? Isn't this how dictatorships succeed?

Ah but she did not join the US Army until at least 2006. At that time the war had been going on for 3 years and everybody knew that WMD did not exist.

In your analogy the German soldier would have volunteered in 1942.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Rerun

Ah but she did not join the US Army until at least 2006. At that time the war had been going on for 3 years and everybody knew that WMD did not exist.

In your analogy the German soldier would have volunteered in 1942.

Again, would you still be against the German deserting?

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Again, would you still be against the German deserting?

yep

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Again, would you still be against the German deserting?

Of course I wouldn't because every German who deserted means one less soldier that the allies would have to face on the field of combat.

But aside from that, if a German joined the Army in 1942 they knew exactly what they were getting into and the German Army would have every right to shoot that person for desertion.

She should in fact count herself lucky this is 2012 not 1942.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

yep

So obedience trumps morality to you then?

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Rerun

Of course I wouldn't because every German who deserted means one less soldier that the allies would have to face on the field of combat.

But aside from that, if a German joined the Army in 1942 they knew exactly what they were getting into and the German Army would have every right to shoot that person for desertion.

She should in fact count herself lucky this is 2012 not 1942.

Sorry, but I'm never going to be against a citizen questioning the decisions of their government (particularly when the government is behaving illegally), regardless of their occupation. Like I said, unquestioned loyalty and deference to authority is a recipe for a dictatorship.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Again, would you still be against the German deserting?

The majority of the German regular army was conscipted the "volunteers" in the SS were die hards and selected based on ideology.

The german army didn't have objector rules and other methods of transfering and the punishment for desertion was death and not a 18 month jail term for leaving a army that you knew was at war when you signed up for.

Its no where near the same.

If she was conscipted you would have an argument.

If she had followed the chain of command, tried the hardship route and the objector route and was either denied it for no good reason or punished for it then you would have an argument.

As it stands she joined up to the military in a time of war, happily accepted a bonus to join up. then when she had problems she didn't follow the chain of command and fled abandoning her comrades and her mission.

She's not some hero, she's not an example to hold up as a protestor, she a moron and she's going to be an example to others who look to take the easy way out and abandon their duty.

18 months in Kansas is appropriate if not a little light.

The Godwin argument makes no sense here its nowhere near the same.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Sorry, but I'm never going to be against a citizen questioning the decisions of their government (particularly when the government is behaving illegally), regardless of their occupation. Like I said, unquestioned loyalty and deference to authority is a recipe for a dictatorship.

This person is not a normal citizen. They have taken an oath to follow "orders". Were her orders to load up men women and children into a train? No, I suspect she got in, was sent over and found out that it was hard work.

We clearly disagree on this point. I have served, I have depended on my fellow soldiers to look after me when I needed it.

I have no sympathy for this women, she took her salary when she was in America, and had no issue. If she had stood up when the War started then I would at least have respected her.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Sorry, but I'm never going to be against a citizen questioning the decisions of their government (particularly when the government is behaving illegally), regardless of their occupation. Like I said, unquestioned loyalty and deference to authority is a recipe for a dictatorship.

The soldier swore an oath to uphold the U.S. consistution, not uphold international law, as did the president at the time.

You could argue under international law that Obama could be tried as could a myriad of other presidents under international law.

International law only applies if the government recognizes it, which the American's don't, nor did the Soviets in Afghanistan nor did a multitude of other nations.

If you don't want to submit to the authority of your commander in chief on what in America was a legal order to go to war then don't sign up x years later and accept a recruitment bonus. Then cry about it later and commit a criminal act that she didn't need to commit.

As part of basic training you are heavily instructed in the interpretation of a legal order, did she object then and follow the chain of command and get clarification as is her right?

Nope

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Bertuzzied

I'm still trying to figure out how George Bush avoided war crimes by invading Iraq?

Head of State Immunity ?

Here's a recap of Bush's AWOL during the Viet Nam war.

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/...national-guard

Interesting what you can get away with if you are among the privileged. It's excused as just being "a young smart aleck".

[Dion]

It's a shame the American military won't let it's soldiers quit. From what i've read she supported the war in the beginning and later began to question what was going on. She stopped carrying her rifle with her and was reprimanded and then secretly stopped carrying ammunition. It should have been clear to her superiors that she didn't want to be a part of the war anymore.

While I don't like the fact that she deserted and crossed the border into Canada, I have to wonder what other options she might have had. I can appreciate that people join with the best intentions and then later become disillusioned on what the mission is about. What I can't understand is why the military would choose to keep a soldier when they no longer believe in the cause.

I suspect that when she is deported the military will make an example out of her and send her to prison for an extended period of time.

[Hemi-Cuda]

Originally Posted by Dion

It's a shame the American military won't let it's soldiers quit. From what i've read she supported the war in the beginning and later began to question what was going on. She stopped carrying her rifle with her and was reprimanded and then secretly stopped carrying ammunition. It should have been clear to her superiors that she didn't want to be a part of the war anymore.

While I don't like the fact that she deserted and crossed the border into Canada, I have to wonder what other options she might have had. I can appreciate that people join with the best intentions and then later become disillusioned on what the mission is about. What I can't understand is why the military would choose to keep a soldier when they no longer believe in the cause.

I suspect that when she is deported the military will make an example out of her and send her to prison for an extended period of time.

Captain Crunch has done a good job of explaining the legal options available to her. she chose the easy, cowardly way out instead

[Thor]

Ill feel sorry for the US military when they stop trying to squeeze their ranks from poor and new US immigrants in order to keep up their ranks.