[News] Calgary Herald: Flames stay mum on timeline, location for new arena

[Table 5]

Why does the value of any development in this city always get compared to overpasses? It seems like it's more important here to get somewhere a little faster, than to actually have somewhere good to go.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Kavy

Since my points are now well documented, and I have hijacked this thread, I will just say I completely respectively disagree.

Duly noted. Everyone here knows where you stand now please move along.

[Senator Clay Davis]

If the price of oil doesn't go back up then there's not much of a hope of getting much of a contribution from the government. And I mostly think subsidizing owners so they can build more luxury boxes the average fan won't ever be in, and charge more for tickets, while having fewer total seats, isn't very good value for our tax money. I'm for contributing a little tax money, but we shouldn't be paying for the arena. I don't see a new arena for at least 5 years and probably closer to 10. Of course having a successful, championship team would help expidite the process.

[Tinordi]

Not appropriate use of tax payer money. If the billionaire owners want a new arena they can pay for it themselves.

[Table 5]

While I'm on the fence whether tax dollars should go to the building itself, Id prefer that any tax money goes to things that have a chance to benefit as many Calgarians as possible...so they might have nothing to do with the building itself. Ie...public transit access or improvement to any new site that could also be used at other times of the year. A new C-Train station at Stampede would sure be nice for everyone involved.

At the end of the day though, there's no doubt that the Flames play a huge role in defining Calgary, so we have to make sure that professional hockey here is supported if we want that to continue. This is not London or NYC, there aren't a ton of other entertainment options in terms of sports.

Also, if Calgarians are chipping in tax dollars, I'd like it to be treated as an investment where they also get a cut of the profits back in some fashion. Treat the team as a special case scenario, but also demand a slice of the action for the gesture.

[Sidney Crosby's Hat]

There's definitely a place for taxpayer funded facilities. Edmonton's is 50% public and 50% private. The city's contribution is less than it was for the Terwillegar Rec Centre in the SW part of the city and the building includes a community rink. The city benefits as 30% of new property taxes (as a result of the arena district) will go towards the building and the other 70% will go towards revitalizing Jasper Ave.

Something along those lines, where the city isn't in too deep -- $125 million or so -- would be a benefit to the community. You can't have a 100% private facility, it doesn't work in a city this size. Ottawa and even Vancouver went bankrupt using such a model.

The city has a stake in this, too. Like Table 5 said the Flames play a huge role in defining Calgary.

[Kavvy]

Darn, people said stuff I agreed with so I have to open my big mouth again.

Originally Posted by Table 5

Also, if Calgarians are chipping in tax dollars, I'd like it to be treated as an investment where they also get a cut of the profits back in some fashion. Treat the team as a special case scenario, but also demand a slice of the action for the gesture.

No problem with that, if we get a fair slice of the action, fine, but whats fair, a fee on the ticket prices which goes to the arena fund, split between the city and the owners? That's fine to me, tax the users of the new facility.

Originally Posted by Sidney Crosby's Hat

There's definitely a place for taxpayer funded facilities. Edmonton's is 50% public and 50% private. The city's contribution is less than it was for the Terwillegar Rec Centre in the SW part of the city and the building includes a community rink. The city benefits as 30% of new property taxes (as a result of the arena district) will go towards the building and the other 70% will go towards revitalizing Jasper Ave.

The city has a stake in this, too. Like Table 5 said the Flames play a huge role in defining Calgary.

Also sort of agree, except this isn't Edmonton and our Arena is already in a great location, new property taxes won't be as big of an impact, even more so since just north of the current location is already being re-built by the city rezoning.

However, my understanding of Edmonton's deal is that the oilers went sleezy, and please correct me if wrong. Edmonton has to contribute x millions of dollars, but then also pay 100% of the tab for community hockey arenas which will be owned by the oilers... that doesn't make sense to me.

I am all for helping our owners, but not with free money, as long as there is return on the investment which is greater than or equal to 0 (i.e. a loan with a interest rate equal to that of the bank of Canada prime rate or something).

[korzym12]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

There isn't another city in north america that's been under constant construction like Calgary over the last decade. Honestly it's time to put some money into other areas besides road construction. Go to Edmonton, Montreal or Saskatoon and all of a sudden our roads look really, really good. The Saddledome and McMahon are the worst or amongst the worst professional sports facilities in North America. Hard to call yourself a world class city when Winnipeg has sporting facilities that far surpass anything in Calgary.

These facilities are happening in every other major Canadian city so why do Calgarians not have any civic pride? Part of this is due to all the transplants that have come here to make their money and bolt back east when they make their fortune and part of this is due to the extreme need of many in this city to own a house they can barely afford and lease BMWs to look the part that need every penny available to keep up with the Joneses. Well I want the transplants to contribute to this city before they take their money and run and since I plan on sticking around I have no qualms with contributing to keeping this city world class.

Just remember it's not Calgary's right to have an NHL franchise, it's a privilege. You tell the Flames owners to stick it and they may tell you to stick it and sell the team.

So long as our roads are 20 years behind where they need to be - every single penny that the province and the city gets should go to CRITICAL infrastructure.

However, if transfer payments were put to an end [$21 billion per year to provinces with $5/day childcare, snow removal on every street and sidewalk - but hey no jobs!] then yes - in a scenario where we had the financial excess that we deserve - then we could talk about spending tax money on culture, art, & sports.

The reason why its deplorable to fund a sports arena with tax dollars? You cut into paychecks of the working class and the poor, only to redistribute it to the rich. That's not the role of government the last time I checked. So what if a new arena brings "investment" - it would only benefit the rich and provide menial concession stand jobs for which there already are an abundance of.

[Sidney Crosby's Hat]

Originally Posted by Kavy

Also sort of agree, except this isn't Edmonton and our Arena is already in a great location, new property taxes won't be as big of an impact, even more so since just north of the current location is already being re-built by the city rezoning.

Obviously the Edmonton and Calgary arenas will be structured differently. That was just an example I gave to show how a project like this could benefit other aspects of the city.

Also, I have a feeling that Calgary's rink won't be in the same area it is now. Just a hunch due to all the secrecy surrounding it that it's on land that they're currently still trying to acquire. The secrecy is so the price doesn't go up, of course.

Originally Posted by Kavy

However, my understanding of Edmonton's deal is that the oilers went sleezy, and please correct me if wrong. Edmonton has to contribute x millions of dollars, but then also pay 100% of the tab for community hockey arenas which will be owned by the oilers... that doesn't make sense to me.

The community rink is part of the ~$450 million tab. On top of that, the Oilers are also paying half the cost of the +15 which will go across 104 ave.

The city will 100% own every part of this project, including the land which Katz has sold back to the city at the same reduced rate he bought it for years ago.

Originally Posted by Kavy

I am all for helping our owners, but not with free money, as long as there is return on the investment which is greater than or equal to 0 (i.e. a loan with a interest rate equal to that of the bank of Canada prime rate or something).

In the case of Edmonton, the city is expected to make over $1.2 billion throughout the course of the agreement which is a pretty solid return.

[Kavvy]

Originally Posted by Sidney Crosby's Hat

Obviously the Edmonton and Calgary arenas will be structured differently. That was just an example I gave to show how a project like this could benefit other aspects of the city.

Also, I have a feeling that Calgary's rink won't be in the same area it is now. Just a hunch due to all the secrecy surrounding it that it's on land that they're currently still trying to acquire. The secrecy is so the price doesn't go up, of course.



The community rink is part of the ~$450 million tab. On top of that, the Oilers are also paying half the cost of the +15 which will go across 104 ave.

The city will 100% own every part of this project, including the land which Katz has sold back to the city at the same reduced rate he bought it for years ago.



In the case of Edmonton, the city is expected to make over $1.2 billion throughout the course of the agreement which is a pretty solid return.

Touche

[korzym12]

Originally Posted by Table 5

Why does the value of any development in this city always get compared to overpasses? It seems like it's more important here to get somewhere a little faster, than to actually have somewhere good to go.

*sigh*.....

You realize taxes are taken by force from the poor & middle class? [and a SWAT team will knock down your door if you try to avoid taxes?]

Taxes BETTER go towards public services & not corporatist bailouts and subsidies.

Frankly its the NHL & the franchises that are being greedy. How much do they make from deals with major TV networks? That alone would provide a pool of funds for the NHL to replace aging arenas and pay for them IN FULL.

But without governments building arenas - creating an arena replacement fund with network broadcast deals - that would eat into their profits. So given all that money under no circumstance should they come to governments asking for money.

The basic parameters of the contract are the following:
- 10 years, through 2020-21.
- $200 million per year, $120 million more than what the NHL receives now.

http://hockeyindependent.com/blog/gordon/33973/

Ken King & co: pay for it yourselves, I'm out here.

[Kavvy]

Originally Posted by fotze

I don't want any of my tax dollars going towards reducing anyones commute. I want the new stadium.

This is probably the best argument I have heard so far, none of this owners deserve this, or don't deserve that, simply, I pay taxes because I have to, and this is where I want my money going.

[Sidney Crosby's Hat]

Originally Posted by Kavy

This is probably the best argument I have heard so far, none of this owners deserve this, or don't deserve that, simply, I pay taxes because I have to, and this is where I want my money going.

Good point. I think because the owners are so rich and players get paid so much, there's more of an outcry with arenas and such.

Otherwise, you'd see outcry from people in Calgary (or Brooks, etc) who are seeing their provincial tax dollars go to projects like the Royal Alberta Museum in Edmonton ($340 million) -- something they'll never use in their lifetime.

[FurnaceFace]

Personally, the Mewata area would be awesome as I'm one of those west side inner city aholes who doesn't drive on billion dollar interchanges daily. Now if they could only incorporate that fataing waste of a bridge somehow it would be awesome.

Sarcasm aside, the west side is an option and something which might actually fit as acceptable use of that land. It seems it's not good for real residential or commercial development so stadiums might be an option. It would also get the stadium out from under the control of The Stampede which would have advantages.

They won't do it, but I'd like the dome to stay so all the monster trucks, figure skating, curling, and other events which mess up the dome ice or force The Flames to go on two week long road trips can go there. Won't happen, but since I'm dreaming, I might as well go all out.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Not appropriate use of tax payer money. If the billionaire owners want a new arena they can pay for it themselves.

The city, and the province reap benefits in many ways from an Arena facility, and therefore should be making a contribution to the creation of such a facility when it's needed. I'm not close enough to know exactly what amount is the right amount for the City and the Province to contribute versus what the private owners put in, but they definetely benefit from it, so it needs to be something.

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Not appropriate use of tax payer money. If the billionaire owners want a new arena they can pay for it themselves.

if the facility was only used for Flames hockey you might actually have a valid point. But the fact of the matter is that it is used for much more than Flames related events.

[getbak]

Out of curiosity, I took the footprints of a couple of building (the Jobing.com Arena is the smaller one, and the UConn Football stadium in Hartford is the larger one) and put them over top some of the spaces that may be available.

I picked two buildings that were built in the last decade that are likely close to the same size as what the new buildings in Calgary will be.

Ken King has said many times that the new arena will be in the downtown area. There aren't that many possible locations that would be available for re-development that are large enough, especially if they want to build both an arena and stadium in the same general area.


1. East Victoria Park


This is the area north of Stampede Park, from 4th St to 6th St and from 12th Ave to the tracks. I believe this has been the Flames' preferred location for a new arena for a number of years. The area north of 11th Ave is currently just a big open lot, and would be big enough for just an arena and some bars and restaurants. The blocks between 11th and 12th have some houses and businesses on them, but they would likely be available for re-development. There was a planned condo tower for the corner of 4th St and 12th Ave, but it was cancelled a few years ago.

This location would need some significant transportation infrastructure work to be able to move people in and out of the area efficiently. It would likely help spur development in the East Village because City Hall would be the closest C-Train station to the complex (slightly closer than Victoria Park), so there would be large numbers of people walking through the East Village before and after every event.



2. Fire Park


This is the old Firestone tire plant on the corner of Memorial and Barlow, north of the Max Bell. This is a massive piece of property that has remained underdeveloped for decades. When they were planning the Olympic venues, this was considered as a possible location for the new arena and a new stadium for the Opening and Closing Ceremonies.

There would probably need to be some road work done to the area to help move people into and out of the site, but it likely would be minimal. It's very close to the Deerfoot and there's already a C-Train station there.

The property is so large that there's room for both the stadium and arena, with plenty to spare for parking and a large entertainment/dining area.



3. West Village -- Greyhound Depot and GSL Chev-City


This is the area directly west of 14th St and bound by the two halves of Bow Trail. The city owns most, if not all, of this land already and has long-term plans to redevelop it as the West Village.

It would be very difficult to put a football stadium into this space with a North-South field orientation. The stadium really only fits if the field were run East-West. The North-South orientation is preferred because it doesn't force one team to play into the sun during the game. Ivor Wynn Stadium in Hamilton is currently the only E-W oriented stadium in the CFL (McMahon is angled slightly to the NW and Taylor Field is angled even more to the NW), but even it is rumored to be getting re-aligned during its reconstruction next year. The stadium in Ottawa also has an E-W orientation, which won't be changed when it re-opens in the future.


3. West Village -- Greyhound, GSL, Renfrew Chrysler


This is the same West Village area, but expanded to include the space currently occupied by Renfrew Chrysler. This would allow for the football stadium to go on the Renfrew space with a field orientation similar to McMahon's.

This would be a drastic change to the City's West Village plans (http://www.calgary.ca/PDA/LUPP/Docum...illage-arp.pdf), but might make more sense in the long-term. The land in this area is badly contaminated because there was a wood treatment plant there for decades, then the car dealerships moved in. Cleaning it up to the point where it's safe for people to live might be impossible, and even if it isn't, it will be extremely expensive.

From a transportation point of view, it's well located. The new Sunalta C-Train station is right there, and Crowchild and 14th St are both nearby.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by fotze

I don't want any of my tax dollars going towards reducing anyones commute. I want the new stadium.

I'm torn. I want the arena too, and I do consider it a public good that warrants some public funding, but the Mewata location increases my commute to games.

The problem with the west end, of course, is the giant clusterpuck that is Crowchild Trail. We'd have to start all games at 9PM just to allow traffic time to reach the arena, though god only knows where they'll park.

As far as the delay goes, I think the Flames know Stampede Park is the ideal location, but they are probably fighting the Stampede on parking. Dropping hints about Mewata or Firepark and whatnot are likely to create pressure on the Stampede to cave. There is no way they want to lose a facility that brings two million people a year to their park.

[Northendzone]

Lots of land in airdrie, and it has the benefit of only being 20 minutes away. Could build on the new bullet train line.

[Notorious Honey Badger]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

The Dome is right up there with Nassau in Long Island with the worst rinks in the NHL. The place is mediocre at best.

They've recently renovated a bit, but it's like putting lipstick on a pig, it's still a pig.

Nassau may be ass but the sightlines are amazing.