North Carolina passes same-sex marriage ban

[Table 5]

I don't know about you guys, but every gay dude I know is hard-working, responsible, anal about details, and always fairly well off (just like you don't see a lot of handsome homeless, you don't really see a lot of lazy-bum gays). In a lot of ways they seem like the perfect candidate to take on the responsibility of rearing a child.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Also, I expect that these sorts of Christians feel the way that they do because for most of us, homosexuality is—for lack of a better word—repulsive. I am not opposed to same sex marriage, but the idea creeps me out. When I watch TV or movies with my wife that feature a homosexual embrace, we usually change the channel because we find it awkward. I expect that a high number of people find homosexuality an easy target for their wrath, simply because it is so foreign and incomprehensible to them. Their natural feelings toward it only help to confirm what they "know" from the Bible.

You realize that those 'natural feelings' are not natural at all, but that heteronormativity is something that is driven into us by the media, our parents, the education system etc.

Those feelings and tendencies are made by man, not by any natural force. they are passed down from parents to children, from teachers to students. Little by little it is changing, and in 20-40 years, 90% of the population would not even consider anything 'unnatural" about it.

[Lobotroth]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

When I watch TV or movies with my wife that feature a homosexual embrace, we usually change the channel because we find it awkward. I expect that a high number of people find homosexuality an easy target for their wrath, simply because it is so foreign and incomprehensible to them. Their natural feelings toward it only help to confirm what they "know" from the Bible.

It's incomprehensible that two people of the same sex might love each other? I guess I need my head checked.

[Table 5]

Not really on point, but this reminds me of a great line I once heard on the issue. One of my clients back in NY is a big gay homo, and we were walking down the street one day after getting some lunch, when we got approached by a one of those teens looking for signatures.

"Excuse me sir, would you like to add your name to support same-sex marriage?"

Client just walks straight by the kid, looks back and says "Oh believe me honey, there's no need. After a few years, all sex is the same".

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

· Leviticus 18:22: "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."
· Leviticus 20:13: "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their blood guiltiness is upon them."
· Romans 1:26-27: "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error."
· I Corinthians 6:9 (NIV): "Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."
· I Timothy 1:8-11 (NASB): "But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching, according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted."

According to your studies, how accurate are these translations or have they been skewed slightly based on inteperatation. In particular, 18:22.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

This doesn't accurately describe conservative Christian reactions to the idea of same-sex marriage. These people do not simply dislike it, they are convinced that it is an abomination. When one is committed to the Bible as the straightforward, unadulterated Word of God, and when she / he reads it like an instruction manual, it is almost impossible to ignore or to gloss over invective statements like the following:

· Leviticus 18:22: "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."
· Leviticus 20:13: "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their blood guiltiness is upon them."
· Romans 1:26-27: "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error."
· I Corinthians 6:9 (NIV): "Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."
· I Timothy 1:8-11 (NASB): "But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching, according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted."

These sorts of Christians not merely dislike homosexuality, they consider it to be an affront to God. It has long been regarded to be a transgression of natural law, and the creative order established by God, and thus, it is by extension considered an especially egregious capital crime.

Also, I expect that these sorts of Christians feel the way that they do because for most of us, homosexuality is—for lack of a better word—repulsive. I am not opposed to same sex marriage, but the idea creeps me out. When I watch TV or movies with my wife that feature a homosexual embrace, we usually change the channel because we find it awkward. I expect that a high number of people find homosexuality an easy target for their wrath, simply because it is so foreign and incomprehensible to them. Their natural feelings toward it only help to confirm what they "know" from the Bible.

And yet they are able to ignore the numerous other aspects of the bible that instruct them to do things that we have long ago determined are total garbage.

[SeeBass]

It's called Cafeteria Christianity

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by troutman

I am sure a large number of Christians do not take instructions from the Bible, but use it to reinforce prejudices that they already have. Picking and choosing.

For sure. The teachings of Jesus were more along the lines of socialism.

Paraphrasing:

Judge not, lest ye be judged...

Do unto others...

Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you have. Forgive as the Lord forgave you...

Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's (to me is a clear instruction to separate the Church and state).

Love Thy Neighbor as Thyself...



If they are using Old Testament teachings, then they are missining the point of their own religion.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Rathji

You realize that those 'natural feelings' are not natural at all, but that heteronormativity is something that is driven into us by the media, our parents, the education system etc.

Those feelings and tendencies are made by man, not by any natural force. they are passed down from parents to children, from teachers to students. Little by little it is changing, and in 20-40 years, 90% of the population would not even consider anything 'unnatural" about it.

Of course I realize this; I only provided it as a reason for why a high number of people react so strongly to this one issue. I seriously doubt that even a fraction of the population recognizes that their own impulses and feelings are socially driven. For most of us, it is quite natural to expect that everyone else around me feels like I do: When you watch a terrible film, your initial thought is that everyone else in the same theatre believes it to be equally terrible.

[HPLovecraft]

Elaine: Ugh, I hate people.
Jerry: Yeah, they're the worst.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by SeeBass

I would be curious if rights are determined now by the majority would these same people feel that way around 2050?

Well, they're guiding their lives based on a two-thousand year old book. I think the only difference 40 years will make is that a lot of these idiots will be dead and hopefully their children see things in a better light.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by valo403

And yet they are able to ignore the numerous other aspects of the bible that instruct them to do things that we have long ago determined are total garbage.

EXACTLY!

If people wanted the freaking Book of Leviticus to guide their lives, how come they're not proposing constitutional amendments to outlaw tattoos and eating shellfish? Banning gay marriage is nothing more than pure old-fashioned bigotry.

How many other things are either condoned or condemned in the Bible that, to our modern standards, seem completely backwards now? What does the Bible say about owning slaves?

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Of course I realize this; I only provided it as a reason for why a high number of people react so strongly to this one issue. I seriously doubt that even a fraction of the population recognizes that their own impulses and feelings are socially driven. For most of us, it is quite natural to expect that everyone else around me feels like I do: When you watch a terrible film, your initial thought is that everyone else in the same theatre believes it to be equally terrible.

I do tend to agree with you on that. If I am watching a film that shows homosexuality, I do feel a little awkward about it. I won't stop watching it though. I think the awkwardness can add to the artistic and comedic aspects.

I guess the thing is, feeling awkward or even offended, should be acceptable. It's not violating anyone's right. I would never vote against someone's freedom just because I thought what they did was gross. To be honest, I feel repulsed when I see heterosexual couples making too many "in the way people", but I would never vote for a law that tried to stop them from having a bazillion children.

The whole "natural vs. unnatural" debate is meaningless to me. We are already living in a world not meant for us. Since the dawn of civilization, we have been doing everything we can to remove ourselves from a natural existence.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Lobotroth

It's incomprehensible that two people of the same sex might love each other? I guess I need my head checked.

Not really what I am getting at. I'm suggesting that as a heterosexual male, I can't imagine how I could ever be sexually attracted to another man. In that sense, it is incomprehensible.

Originally Posted by valo403

And yet they are able to ignore the numerous other aspects of the bible that instruct them to do things that we have long ago determined are total garbage.

There are two parts to this sort of reaction: The first is the choice to embrace what the Bible says on the subject on the grounds that the Bible says it. The second confirms that choice by way of personal experience or impulse. Biblical endorsements of slavery are so much easier to either ignore or to apologetically rationalize because it has become so culturally foreign. "Of course slavery is wrong—ergo, there must be some other explanation for the tolerance and promotion of slavery in the Bible."

[mrkajz44]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Of course I realize this; I only provided it as a reason for why a high number of people react so strongly to this one issue. I seriously doubt that even a fraction of the population recognizes that their own impulses and feelings are socially driven. For most of us, it is quite natural to expect that everyone else around me feels like I do: When you watch a terrible film, your initial thought is that everyone else in the same theatre believes it to be equally terrible.

I like to call it the Nickleback effect. People are afraid to be outcast so they join the majority and feel safe.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by valo403

And yet they are able to ignore the numerous other aspects of the bible that instruct them to do things that we have long ago determined are total garbage.

Isn't Leviticus the one where they tell you not to eat shellfish?

[chemgear]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

There are two parts to this sort of reaction: The first is the choice to embrace what the Bible says on the subject on the grounds that the Bible says it. The second confirms that choice by way of personal experience or impulse. Biblical endorsements of slavery are so much easier to either ignore or to apologetically rationalize because it has become so culturally foreign. "Of course slavery is wrong—ergo, there must be some other explanation for the tolerance and promotion of slavery in the Bible."

But you (or rather "they") don't follow that thought or rationalization through to the end. You can't just go "ergo there must be some other explanation", don't go and follow through on that investigation, give up and just wave your hands and say, yup - I figured it out, high five. Now I can continue to thump the parts I like and continue blindly discriminating with glee.

That's exactly the problem. You are still picking and choosing to ignore the crap you don't like.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

Isn't Leviticus the one where they tell you not to eat shellfish?

http://www.godhatesshrimp.com/

Shrimp, crab, lobster, clams, mussels, all these are an abomination before the Lord, just as gays are an abomination. Why stop at protesting gay marriage? Bring all of God's law unto the heathens and the sodomites. We call upon all Christians to join the crusade against Long John Silver's and Red Lobster. Yea, even Popeye's shall be cleansed. The name of Bubba shall be anathema. We must stop the unbelievers from destroying the sanctity of our restaurants.

Leviticus 11:9-12 says:
9 These shall ye eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat.
10 And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you:
11 They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination.
12 Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.

Deuteronomy 14:9-10 says:
9 These ye shall eat of all that are in the waters: all that have fins and scales shall ye eat:
10 And whatsoever hath not fins and scales ye may not eat; it is unclean unto you.

[Hilch]

Life is wasted without straight sex.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

According to your studies, how accurate are these translations or have they been skewed slightly based on inteperatation. In particular, 18:22.

The instructions in Leviticus are pretty clear from the Hebrew, and this is also confirmed by everything else we know about ancient Israelite culture from archaeology and anthropology.
The translations in each of the "catalogues of sins" that appear in 1 Corinthians 6 and 1 Timothy 1 is also pretty accurate, although there are disputes as to whether ἀρσενοκοίτης refers to all participants in homosexual activity, or to only the penetrator. The latter would make good cultural sense, given that most male homosexual activity in ancient Greece was a form of pederasty: A sexual relationship between an adolescent and his much older mentor, as part of his formal education. In such a context it would be understandable for these writers here to single out the older, "active" partner, and to forgive the child.