2012 MLS Thread

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by Muta

I`m still in awe at the fact that a replacement stadium for McMahon isn`t seriously being considered at this point in time.

This city has a tremendous base of wealth, and a new McMahon stadium - an INDOOR stadium, mind you, would be the logical next step for the Stamps, the University of Calgary and all subsequent events you could have in there.

MLS could become a viable option in Calgary once a roofed stadium is built. Our climate is just not favourable towards soccer to have a team play outside. Soccer WILL succeed when people know they can watch a professional franchise inside.

Regina is getting ready to break ground for their new stadium, and I`m still baffled Calgary can`t get their act in order. We badly need a new football-soccer-concert stadium. We have money, just no one is prepared to take the next serious step.

Agreed 100%. Its positively shameful. However, the government would have to pay for the majority of it, and you know how people will lose their minds if the City of Calgary and Government of Alberta wrote cheques to build a new UofC/Stampeders/future MLS/concert Stadium with enclosable roof. The University can't afford to contribute much, the Stampeders are a glorified minor league team worth a fraction of the Flames, so they can't contribute much either. Outside sponsors don't tend to emerge until construction is underway, so that really leaves the Government.

[Muta]

I know (almost as fact) the U of C has no money to spend right now, and you`re right - people would be up in arms if governments spent money on a project like this.

Funny thing is, for me personally... I`d be okay with my taxes going to this project. Not everything the government spends money on is a bad thing, and I`d be willing to pay a bit more per year to make it happen. Then again, I`m probably in the minority.

What needs to happen is a collective campaign on many levels to see something built out of necessity. Sadly enough, I`m actually hoping that the seats (obviously with no people in them) collapse or something, or become unfit for use, in order to force a developer`s hand to bringing a collaborative effort to the table and get people thinking about a new facility... if that`s what it unfortunately takes.

Maybe one day when I get off my duff and start a multi-million dollar company, as a soccer fan I`ll invest in a stadium in Calgary.

On a serious note though... we should be watching Regina VERY closely right now.

EDIT: Id like to see a 30,000 seat indoor stadium built. We dont need 50,000... Im sure 30,000 would be ideal. Hell... even 25,000 with room for temporary additional seating inside when necessary.

[shermanator]

Originally Posted by Thunderball

Agreed 100%. Its positively shameful. However, the government would have to pay for the majority of it, and you know how people will lose their minds if the City of Calgary and Government of Alberta wrote cheques to build a new UofC/Stampeders/future MLS/concert Stadium with enclosable roof. The University can't afford to contribute much, the Stampeders are a glorified minor league team worth a fraction of the Flames, so they can't contribute much either. Outside sponsors don't tend to emerge until construction is underway, so that really leaves the Government.

IIRC Nenshi floated the idea of a 1% sales tax to fund projects such as stadiums, libraries, transit, etc. Would bring in ~350 mil annually. Building a new football and soccer stadium would be funded from taxes such as these.

Personally, I would love the idea of such a sales tax (1% on everything isn't enough for me to notice), but I can see a lot of people coming on board with the idea. I can already see the Rick Bell article now...

[Ozy_Flame]

FYI, there is a rather significant connection to football for Calgary. Brett Wilson, oilpatch superhero and Dragon's Den star, owns a chunk of the Derby County Rams, a team in the Football League Championship. He has said before he wants to promote the game in North America wherever possible.

Rather than an "FC Alberta" or MLS team here (which is years and years away IMO), why not be a feeder team in the NASL to Derby County? This would be a similar scheme to what Chivas USA is to Guadalajara. I say start small, bring some international footballers here, and even a few exhibition games against NASL opponents. If I'm not mistaken, Wilson was interested in bringing DC out to Calgary for training camps, so why not make it a foothold to grow soccer in Calgary?

Wilson also has the bucks and the interest in the sport to possibly head up some sort of consortium of investors to get things moving in Calgary - which I believe is the only viable solution to getting a new stadium (multiple investors with various stakes in new stadium revenue).

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

FYI, there is a rather significant connection to football for Calgary. Brett Wilson, oilpatch superhero and Dragon's Den star, owns a chunk of the Derby County Rams, a team in the Football League Championship. He has said before he wants to promote the game in North America wherever possible.

Rather than an "FC Alberta" or MLS team here (which is years and years away IMO), why not be a feeder team in the NASL to Derby County? This would be a similar scheme to what Chivas USA is to Guadalajara. I say start small, bring some international footballers here, and even a few exhibition games against NASL opponents. If I'm not mistaken, Wilson was interested in bringing DC out to Calgary for training camps, so why not make it a foothold to grow soccer in Calgary?

Wilson also has the bucks and the interest in the sport to possibly head up some sort of consortium of investors to get things moving in Calgary - which I believe is the only viable solution to getting a new stadium (multiple investors with various stakes in new stadium revenue).

I would be one of the first in line for season tickets for "Calgary Rams FC" and would probably adopt DC into my soccer fold as well as a result, but would 5000 other people do the same? Brett Wilson's star power would definitely lend some credibility to the venture, and I think an upgraded Foothills or Hellard would suit this team fine. It would be great if he was able to make some waves in this regard.

The purists in this city would take anything reasonable, and that would suit the bill. I think MLS would get the casual fans, but baby steps.

[Ozy_Flame]

Anyone else taking solace in the fact that as the Flames wind down their hockey season, MLS soccer is ramping up? I'm looking forward to watching all three Canadian teams. Will be a nice segue from what looks to be another missed playoffs from the boys in Red (yes, I know I'm pessimistic about this whole but MLS is brightening my spirits!)

[fundmark19]

I am getting really excited. Whitecaps seem to be doing things right. They scheduled their home opener against montreal as a day game right before nucks vs habs game that night. That would be one hell of a day as a sports fan in vancouver. The stadiums are litterally a 2 min walk from each other and there is a costco mid way between the 2 where you can stop and grab a 1.50 hotdog and pop for a between game snack!

[Montana Moe]

Over 16k for a preseason game tonight in Portland, not too shabby. 1-1 draw against San Jose, but they scored both goals, which is nice.

Looking forward to seeing them against Swedish side AIK on Sunday.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Thunderball

1. Stadia. McMahon Stadium is suitable for the wrecking ball, and little else, unless 30-100 million dollars is found to bring it up to code. It works for the CFL (for now) because of the niche nature of that league, and the die-hard attitude of its supporters. But in 3-5 years, when McMahon is the lousiest stadium left, that will likely change. Hellard and Foothills are too small at ~2000 each. But, rumor is FC Edmonton's stadium plan is to play at Clarke (1200 seats) and add about 2000 temp seating... so Edmonton may be setting a precedent that allows these two facilities to be in play for a Calgary NASL franchise. Except for reason

Unless the stadium has deteriorated dramatically in the last few years I think you're severely overstating things. It's by no means a nice stadium, and lacks pretty much anything that would be considered fancy, but it serves its purpose quite effectively.

You need to remember what that purpose is, 9-10 CFL games a year and a handful of U of C games. You can't honestly tell me that an NFL style stadium is needed to serve that purpose, that would be one of the most absurd financial wastes I can imagine. In order to justify something like that you'd need to dramatically expand the use, and honestly what additional use are you expecting?

An MLS franchise would fit the bill, but that puts us in a chicken and egg scenario and I'm not convinced that Calgary is an MLS city regardless of the stadium and I sure as hell wouldn't be funding a stadium on that basis.

Concerts shouldn't be a consideration, the one or two stadium tours that may roll through each year should be seen as a bonus, not a basis.

If you look at the stadiums used by the vast majority of NCAA programs you'd find that they aren't all that different from McMahon. Some have recent press/luxury box additions, but the base structure is still the cement slab look and the concourses are shuttered holes in said cement slabs. And these are facilities catering to 2-3x more people per event.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by shermanator

IIRC Nenshi floated the idea of a 1% sales tax to fund projects such as stadiums, libraries, transit, etc. Would bring in ~350 mil annually. Building a new football and soccer stadium would be funded from taxes such as these.

Personally, I would love the idea of such a sales tax (1% on everything isn't enough for me to notice), but I can see a lot of people coming on board with the idea. I can already see the Rick Bell article now...

This make some sense but it would never be passed because it would still be a hard sell to use that money on stadiums, etc while proposing cuts to the police force.

I still think the goverment of Alberta missed on opportunity to implement at 2% PST when the federal goverment decreased the GST to 5%.

It would have kept us with no real change to what the province was used to paying and it would have helped raise some money to improve the funding for education and poilce services in the province.

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by valo403

Unless the stadium has deteriorated dramatically in the last few years I think you're severely overstating things. It's by no means a nice stadium, and lacks pretty much anything that would be considered fancy, but it serves its purpose quite effectively.

You need to remember what that purpose is, 9-10 CFL games a year and a handful of U of C games. You can't honestly tell me that an NFL style stadium is needed to serve that purpose, that would be one of the most absurd financial wastes I can imagine. In order to justify something like that you'd need to dramatically expand the use, and honestly what additional use are you expecting?

An MLS franchise would fit the bill, but that puts us in a chicken and egg scenario and I'm not convinced that Calgary is an MLS city regardless of the stadium and I sure as hell wouldn't be funding a stadium on that basis.

Concerts shouldn't be a consideration, the one or two stadium tours that may roll through each year should be seen as a bonus, not a basis.

If you look at the stadiums used by the vast majority of NCAA programs you'd find that they aren't all that different from McMahon. Some have recent press/luxury box additions, but the base structure is still the cement slab look and the concourses are shuttered holes in said cement slabs. And these are facilities catering to 2-3x more people per event.

You're right, I did take a little dramatic license. Its likely not going to collapse any time soon.

However, is a 50 year old, spartan, outdated facility with inadequate washroom facilities, narrow passages, bench seating and lousy concession facilities actually acceptable for the richest and 4th largest metro in Canada? Its at the end of its lifecycle and Calgary needs a facility that recognizes that our climate is not compatible for sitting outside unprotected from March to May and October to December. (even that varies)

It suits the CFL... today. But what in 5 years when McMahon becomes, bar none, the worst facility in the CFL West, and second worst in the league (unless Montreal moves to a different facility). Hamilton, Winnipeg and Regina are all getting new government funded facilities. Vancouver's just got a facelift. Rogers and Commonwealth are decades newer and better built. If Winnipeg can build a new NHL arena without a tenant, surely Calgary can build a 30-40k facility in the same caliber of BC Place?

Adding more attractions would be the basis of a new facility, be it MLS, NASL, Canadian National Mens and Womens Teams, concerts, outdoor lacrosse, or any other sport. Right now, McMahon CAN NOT do more than it does, not that they wouldn't like to... save for the random event like the Heritage Classic where the NHL/Flames will drop a pile of money (wasnt it something like $1m) to temporarily raise it to minimum acceptable standard.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by Thunderball

Hamilton, Winnipeg and Regina are all getting new government funded facilities. .

Do you know to what extent? It is my understanding that none of them got Federal money. I'm not even sure if Regina or Winnipeg are getting Provincial money.

Hamilton I'd imagine got some public money but isn't part of their upgrade for the Commonwealth games?

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

Do you know to what extent? It is my understanding that none of them got Federal money. I'm not even sure if Regina or Winnipeg are getting Provincial money.

Hamilton I'd imagine got some public money but isn't part of their upgrade for the Commonwealth games?

Quick glance is that the Feds are not involved in Regina or Winnipeg, but the provincial governments are involved in both.

Regina's is a $400m P3 project, and I wasnt able to determine anything more than municipal and provincial governments were involved.

Winnipeg's is a cheaper $190m project between UofM, City of Winnipeg, the Blue Bombers and the Manitoba Government. Winnipeg Blue Bombers are paying back $85 million and the provincial and city levels of government are splitting the rest of the costs.

Hamilton's is definitely government funded, like you said, linked to Pan-Am/Commonwealth bids.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by Thunderball

Quick glance is that the Feds are not involved in Regina or Winnipeg, but the provincial governments are involved in both.

Regina's is a $400m P3 project, and I wasnt able to determine anything more than municipal and provincial governments were involved.

Winnipeg's is a cheaper $190m project between UofM, City of Winnipeg, the Blue Bombers and the Manitoba Government. Winnipeg Blue Bombers are paying back $85 million and the provincial and city levels of government are splitting the rest of the costs.

Hamilton's is definitely government funded, like you said, linked to Pan-Am/Commonwealth bids.

Right, Pan Am not Commonwealth. Unless it is both. I knew it was one of those second tier games.

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

Right, Pan Am not Commonwealth. Unless it is both. I knew it was one of those second tier games.

I think Hamilton is actually bidding for both... but its unlikely they'd get more than one.

But no reason Calgary can't build now, and snipe at least a second tier game, if not Olympics again, in the next 10-20 years using that facility.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Thunderball

You're right, I did take a little dramatic license. Its likely not going to collapse any time soon.

However, is a 50 year old, spartan, outdated facility with inadequate washroom facilities, narrow passages, bench seating and lousy concession facilities actually acceptable for the richest and 4th largest metro in Canada? Its at the end of its lifecycle and Calgary needs a facility that recognizes that our climate is not compatible for sitting outside unprotected from March to May and October to December. (even that varies)

It suits the CFL... today. But what in 5 years when McMahon becomes, bar none, the worst facility in the CFL West, and second worst in the league (unless Montreal moves to a different facility). Hamilton, Winnipeg and Regina are all getting new government funded facilities. Vancouver's just got a facelift. Rogers and Commonwealth are decades newer and better built. If Winnipeg can build a new NHL arena without a tenant, surely Calgary can build a 30-40k facility in the same caliber of BC Place?

Adding more attractions would be the basis of a new facility, be it MLS, NASL, Canadian National Mens and Womens Teams, concerts, outdoor lacrosse, or any other sport. Right now, McMahon CAN NOT do more than it does, not that they wouldn't like to... save for the random event like the Heritage Classic where the NHL/Flames will drop a pile of money (wasnt it something like $1m) to temporarily raise it to minimum acceptable standard.

Surely Calgary can, but it would be stupid to do so.

What's the upside of that massive expenditure? A pipe dream MLS team? An occasional national team game? One or two concerts every couple of years? Lacrosse? (Seriously? Lacrosse?). There is quite simply no need for Calgary to have such a stadium, it would be an absolutely massive waste of money.

It needs some upgrades, the washroom facilities for instance, but I think you're completely out of touch with what passes for a solid football stadium in North America. This is not an NFL stadium. It shouldn't be. Look at the stadiums that the majority of NCAA programs play in. Look at the Big House, Spartan Stadium or Notre Dame Stadium. All of those are much larger and much higher profile, and all of them have similar quality washroom facilities, concession facilities, almost exclusively bench seating and the other qualities that somehow make McMahon completely unacceptable. The only real difference with those stadiums is the press/luxury box component, and I'm not sure that's really applicable to a CFL stadium. You'll also note that all of them are located in climates that aren't all that different than Calgary.

The only argument I see being made is 'hey, they got a new shiny thing so we should too'. That's simply a poor basis for spending hundreds of millions of dollars.

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by valo403

Surely Calgary can, but it would be stupid to do so.

What's the upside of that massive expenditure? A pipe dream MLS team? An occasional national team game? One or two concerts every couple of years? Lacrosse? (Seriously? Lacrosse?). There is quite simply no need for Calgary to have such a stadium, it would be an absolutely massive waste of money.

It needs some upgrades, the washroom facilities for instance, but I think you're completely out of touch with what passes for a solid football stadium in North America. This is not an NFL stadium. It shouldn't be. Look at the stadiums that the majority of NCAA programs play in. Look at the Big House, Spartan Stadium or Notre Dame Stadium. All of those are much larger and much higher profile, and all of them have similar quality washroom facilities, concession facilities, almost exclusively bench seating and the other qualities that somehow make McMahon completely unacceptable. The only real difference with those stadiums is the press/luxury box component, and I'm not sure that's really applicable to a CFL stadium. You'll also note that all of them are located in climates that aren't all that different than Calgary.

The only argument I see being made is 'hey, they got a new shiny thing so we should too'. That's simply a poor basis for spending hundreds of millions of dollars.

By that logic, why build a new central library? The Downtown one serves it purpose, same with Central Memorial and the dozens of other locations... books are going the way of the do-do anyway. Plus, other cities have much worse library systems. Why does Calgary need a fancy shiny new one?

Furthermore, why waste $100m on Cantos Music Centre? Surely the existing facilities attract enough musicians, since the arts and culture scene is growing without it. Most other cities don't have one. Why does Calgary need a fancy, shiny facility that will never repay its cost?

My point is, top venues attract top performers, top events and increase city/province perception. So lets say all $200 million buys is a new soccer tenant and 6 concerts a year. That's roughly 20 more events than before, and the economic spin-off therein. That's a greater exposure to sports and arts that Calgary did not have before. Plus, the existing 10 CFL games and 12 CIS games are now that much more lucrative, comfortable and marketable.

These things are important to a society. Sports carry the stigma of being owned my billionaires and played by millionaires, but the fact is these facilities are good for cities. For example, the Winnipeg facility will be used year round for recreational uses, as well as the Bombers, the Bisons and numerous other events its bound to attract.

If I'm out of touch, Regina and Winnipeg must be extremely out of touch. Much smaller centres are building vastly superior stadia to your "north american model" for CFL, CIS and potentially concerts and NASL usages. Even the upgrades that you admit are necessary will likely run in the tens of millions. Do enough of the upgrade wishlist, and you'll soon hit Winnipeg's Stadium pricetag. While not the best comparable, BC Place's renovation cost $563 million. I suspect a real McMahon facelift consisting of more than paint and modular buildings would be in the $100 million + range.

The issue isn't that the new McMahon won't have enough tenants... the issue is the current McMahon can't take on more due to its age and spartan nature. Even the Stampeders are crying foul about it.

[mac_82]

43500 seats have been sold to the Champions League match between TFC and LA. I wish I was going! This could be the first year I don't attend a TFC game in 5 years

[seattleflamer]

Originally Posted by mac_82

43500 seats have been sold to the Champions League match between TFC and LA. I wish I was going! This could be the first year I don't attend a TFC game in 5 years

That is awesome to hear! Toronto fans have been very patient w their team. I hope they do well this year except when they play the Sounders

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Thunderball

By that logic, why build a new central library? The Downtown one serves it purpose, same with Central Memorial and the dozens of other locations... books are going the way of the do-do anyway. Plus, other cities have much worse library systems. Why does Calgary need a fancy shiny new one?

Furthermore, why waste $100m on Cantos Music Centre? Surely the existing facilities attract enough musicians, since the arts and culture scene is growing without it. Most other cities don't have one. Why does Calgary need a fancy, shiny facility that will never repay its cost?

My point is, top venues attract top performers, top events and increase city/province perception. So lets say all $200 million buys is a new soccer tenant and 6 concerts a year. That's roughly 20 more events than before, and the economic spin-off therein. That's a greater exposure to sports and arts that Calgary did not have before. Plus, the existing 10 CFL games and 12 CIS games are now that much more lucrative, comfortable and marketable.

These things are important to a society. Sports carry the stigma of being owned my billionaires and played by millionaires, but the fact is these facilities are good for cities. For example, the Winnipeg facility will be used year round for recreational uses, as well as the Bombers, the Bisons and numerous other events its bound to attract.

If I'm out of touch, Regina and Winnipeg must be extremely out of touch. Much smaller centres are building vastly superior stadia to your "north american model" for CFL, CIS and potentially concerts and NASL usages. Even the upgrades that you admit are necessary will likely run in the tens of millions. Do enough of the upgrade wishlist, and you'll soon hit Winnipeg's Stadium pricetag. While not the best comparable, BC Place's renovation cost $563 million. I suspect a real McMahon facelift consisting of more than paint and modular buildings would be in the $100 million + range.

The issue isn't that the new McMahon won't have enough tenants... the issue is the current McMahon can't take on more due to its age and spartan nature. Even the Stampeders are crying foul about it.

First of all, the comparison to a library is laughable. If you can't grasp the different impacts that a library and a stadium used for professional sports 15 times a year have on a city I'm not sure there's any point having a conversation with you. It's such an absurd strawman argument, and you know it.

The hi-lighted paragraph demonstrates why you think this would be a good idea, because you live in a fantasy land.

First, $200mil for a 40,000 seat domed stadium? Are you expecting to use volunteer labor in the construction or something? That figure is completely out to lunch. LiveStrong Park in KC cost $200mil and seat under 20,000 and is open air. The covered stadium proposed in Regina would cost $400mil, so unless you've got an explanation for that $200mil figure I'd say you're intentionally skewing the picture to suit your argument.

Second, you continue to base this around the addition of a fantasy MLS team when there is absolutely nothing to indicate that Calgary is a desirable market for the MLS. It seems as if you're drawing on a field of dreams style 'if you build it they will come' idea, unfortunately this isn't a movie and there aren't going to be any ghosts strolling out of corn fields. Even if the goal is to attract an MLS team, a $400mil+ 40,000 seat domed stadium is massive overkill.

Third, 6 concerts a year? Again, I'm not sure where you're coming up with these numbers but they seem to be created as a means to make your argument look stronger than it is. There have been a grand total of 6 concerts at Commonwealth since 2007. Unless U2, Bon Jovi, Kenny Chesney, and the handful of other acts that do stadium tours are all planning to tour every year, and include a city that is already off a lot of bands touring plans due to its location, that number is a complete fantasy. You would be lucky to add one additional concert to the city each year.

As for it making CFL games more marketable (I'm not even going to address the idea that this would make CIS football marketable, it's a small time sport with a fanbase consisting predominantly of friends and family) that's all well and good, but why exactly are taxpayer dollars being used to make a professional sports team more marketable? In a situation where a new building is an absolute must, such as with the Flames, I don't have an issue with some taxpayer funding, but that's not the case here.

Now let's get to the "these facilities are good for cities" argument. I don't disagree, but how exactly would this new facility make the lives of Calgarians better? McMahon already offers plenty of recreational use, does this facility somehow expand that? I suppose putting in a dome would do that, but if the payoff is recreational use you could achieve that same result at a minuscule fraction of the cost.

I honestly question whether or not you've ever been to another football stadium in North America. I've been to dozens, and the only ones that aren't pretty similar to McMahon are NFL stadiums. The CFL is not the NFL. The revenue streams aren't there, the demand isn't there, the need isn't there. Again, look at the stadiums utilized by some of the most profitable NCAA football programs in the country. They are strikingly similar to McMahon, with the only real differences being the size and the enhanced high end/press areas.

The bottom line is that McMahon can't really take on more, but it doesn't need to, not for that price tag. A single concert? A pipe dream MLS team? Padded seats for the parents of Dinos players? All for the low, low price of $500mil.