Back in the day...we didnt have the "green thing"

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by jammies

Back in "ye old days" they also burned craploads of coal and oil and vented it directly into the atmosphere without any kind of scrubbing or processing, dumped toxic chemicals into rivers willy-nilly because it was cheap to do so, shot practically all the bison, killed off all the passenger pigeons (of which there were BILLIONS), drained hundreds of thousands of square kilometres of marshland to build suburbs, and destroyed millions of acres of farmland in the Dust Bowl because they overused the soil. Just to name off a few examples - by no means exhaustive.

So shut it, gramps.

Yeah industry was really doing some nasty things but the regular guy shouldn't be held entirely responsible for it. The next generation will probably look at you and tell you to shut it, gramps as well.

One thing I've noticed in the current generation is that 40 or 50 years ago people who were energy conscious would buy cars that got 40m/Gallon (ImperialG) and they haven't improved much since than.

Another thing I remember from the 50s was in the Lower Mainland, we had terrible fogs. You couldn't see your hand in front of you and cars were often ending up in the ditch. I think this was mostly from all the coal, wood and sawdust burnt in those days.

Natural gas is a lot better but still our present day coal fired thermal plants are nothing to brag about either. What are you doing about the present day problems? The next generations are going to come down on you for the Tar Sands.

[afc wimbledon]

My mother has about 800 corned beef can keys in her kitchen drawer, for no reason at all that either she or I could come up with, mind you I bet I have at least 40 ikea allan keys that are both crap and all the same size for the same reason.

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

In other words "you geezers didn't call it being green, so even if you did recycle and try not to throw everything in the garbage, it doesn't count".



What do you mean by "per capita frequency"?

And I know I know, everything is green now. We are all at peace with Gaia. It even says so on my bathroom cleaner. But the funny thing is that all of us in this enviro-conscious era use more energy and consume more crap than anyone else, ever.

A lot of it is painted green though, and now we know what to call it, so we we are all good.

No, I'm saying they didn't have the option. If dryers were available I'm sure they woulda used them. I mean, someone eventually adopted them into their lifestyle to start us off, and guess what, it wasn't me. I'm not saying it doesn't count either, I'm just saying the snarky 'I told you so/we did better than you' tone of the article is asinine. They weren't going without or making lifestyle changes to try and make the situation better, they were just living as they knew how.

The 'per capita' term was incorrectly used only because I'm not sure of the correct term, but what I'm trying to say is that industry as a whole is more green today than it was before even though there are still some that try to get away with things and behave immoraly (just as there always have been). A lot of that can be credited to different green and humane movements.

Lastly I'm not saying things are great now, or people behave WAY better now, or industry is perfect now. Far from it. In fact I've railed against those things many MANY times on this board. We have a LONG way to go, as citizens, as companies, and as governments. And I totally agree, much is 'painted green' today that really isn't. Or is solving a symptom and not a problem. Heck, I'm not even saying we are doing better as a generation, though I hope and think that at the very least we are moving in the right direction. And at least, as we can see from this, the conversation is happening.

I was only pointing out that the position and tone of this article, or as I put it 'generational pat on the back' is incorrect and silly. It's just another one of those things on the internet that make you smile at first glance, but doesn't hold up under five minutes of scrutiny.

[Stranger]

I don't mind going green. I've done a few things in the last few years. (Changing out old furnace, new windows, more fuel efficient vehicle, better lights, etc) I just don't like the idea of governments forcing it upon us in the form of a tax.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

Yeah industry was really doing some nasty things but the regular guy shouldn't be held entirely responsible for it.

Regular guys financed, built and staffed those industries. So coming out now and telling the "regular guys" of today that they were saints we should emulate just doesn't cut it.

Originally Posted by Vulcan

The next generation will probably look at you and tell you to shut it, gramps as well.

No, 'cause I won't tell them how great it was in the old days, because it really wasn't. I have enough sense not to idealize my youth just because I happened to be young during the entirety of it.

[Vulcan]

Actually back in the day, we did have the green thing. Green Peace started from the 60s counter culture and was established in 72. It isn't a new thing just because now we have given this philosophy a new name.

As for the electric dryer business, we had an electric dryer in the 50s but only used it when it rained. Clothes come off the line much fresher than coming out of a dryer.
We had a vegetable garden and had a compost heap from our waste food for fertilizer. Horse manure was better though. Being green or being conscious of the resources we use isn't new.

[something]

Originally Posted by photon

Also didn't have 7 billion people.

Yup.

And they're the ones responsible for that, too!

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by jammies

Regular guys financed, built and staffed those industries. So coming out now and telling the "regular guys" of today that they were saints we should emulate just doesn't cut it.



No, 'cause I won't tell them how great it was in the old days, because it really wasn't. I have enough sense not to idealize my youth just because I happened to be young during the entirety of it.

Hey, nobody said we were saints, the original article was in response to the snotty check out girl. I'm talking about the regular guy who went to work to put food on the table because he really didn't have much choice. The financiers are another matter and are still around doing whatever they can get away with. I take the situation as what I can control, I try to do, what I can't control, I don't beat myself up over it.

Well this guy wasn't bragging either, he was just trying to buy some groceries and made a mistake. The guy may be be some reactionary stuck in a past generation but I have some sympathy for him.

From the sounds of your reaction and others on this board, wait until the time comes that you are called out on the waste and destruction caused by your generation. You're going to get it whether you are bragging or not.

[ken0042]

What I don't get is why all these stores make it so hard to get paper bags now? Isn't paper way better for the environment than plastic? If they are so converned, make it easy for somebody to pick paper.

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

From the sounds of your reaction and others on this board, wait until the time comes that you are called out on the waste and destruction caused by your generation. You're going to get it whether you are bragging or not.

Well I already admitted this gen is bad, so I don't mind getting called out on it. As I said, I know that I'm trying to be part of the solution anyway, so people can say what they want. And as I mentioned I wasn't coming on here to brag, I was just pointing out the flaws in the original article, both in tone and specifics.

I have nothing against the previous generations, for the most part, no one really knew what was harmful. There's always the problems with companies dumping in the water and soil, and even before environmental regs they knew what they were doing was wrong, but we got those now too. Less of them on a per company basis I'm sure, but idiots and criminals all the same.

I'm just saying, by the same token, you can't reverse it and say just because you were using a clothesline or whatever you were being so much better. Had someone given the previous (or previous previous) generations the luxuries or systems we have now they'd use them all the same. They weren't doing it out of care or knowledge. They were doing it because it's all they have, so the bragging in the article is silly.

The real change is when people give up luxuries and conveniences and lifestyle to do the right thing, which some people are on the path to now.

[Vulcan]

The real change is when people give up luxuries and conveniences and lifestyle to do the right thing, which some people are on the path to now.

Uh, some people were doing it back in the day also. Your generation has no monopoly on making proper lifestyle choices just as we don't take the blame for all the crap that went on in my time.

Someone once said "there is nothing new under the sun" but I sincerely hope your generation can do better.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by ken0042

What I don't get is why all these stores make it so hard to get paper bags now? Isn't paper way better for the environment than plastic? If they are so converned, make it easy for somebody to pick paper.

Plastic became cheaper to buy and make, so retailers eliminated paper.

[puckluck]

Originally Posted by ken0042

What I don't get is why all these stores make it so hard to get paper bags now? Isn't paper way better for the environment than plastic? If they are so converned, make it easy for somebody to pick paper.

The thing is, they aren't concerned at all. It's become such a publicity stunt and a form of advertising where they compete against each other making the consumers think they are better than the competition because of how green the store is. When in reality the only thing they care about is their profit. If using plastic saves them one dollar over paper bags we all know what route they're taking.

[Dion]

According to a 2007 study by Boustead Consulting & Associates. It takes almost four times as much energy to manufacture a paper bag as it does to manufacture a polyethylene bag.

Not only do both paper and compostable resin bags use far more fossil fuel in production and manufacturing, but they also use twenty times as much fresh watervs plastic bags.

Additionally, most paper comes from tree pulp, so the impact of paper bag production on forests is enormous. A 2008 article from theNational Cooperative Grocers Associationstates that each year the United States consumes 10 billion paper grocery bags, requiring 14 million trees. Paper bag production delivers a global warming double-whammy; forests (major absorbers of greenhouse gases) have to be cut down, and then the subsequent manufacturing of bags produces greenhouse gases. However, plastic bags are not the more sustainable solution as they use more fossil fuels and raw materials energy, and consume larger amounts of crude oil and natural gas than paper bags.

http://www.reuseit.com/learn-more/my...r-than-plastic

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by Dion

http://www.reuseit.com/learn-more/my...r-than-plastic

Interesting aside that is related to this paper post. Toilet paper is a massive consumer of tree pulp and by that fact, trees. And sad enough, the fluffiest paper comes from the trees with suitable bark and pulp. Old rare forests often in Canada.

http://blogs.nationalgeographic.com/...et-tissue.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/26/sc...26charmin.html

Not sure what to do with this, because few things are more sacred than toilet paper, even for me. I hate that recycled stuff, though some brands are getting better. Someone once turned me on to the modern bidets they have, eliminating 90% of the use one needs for toilet paper, but I cannot afford one.

Anyway, plastic, though it doesn't degrade as well paper, is often a better overall solution to many problems (meaning bags here, not toilet paper) and even better if you recycle and reuse them.

[puckluck]

Originally Posted by Dion

http://www.reuseit.com/learn-more/my...r-than-plastic

This doesn't take into account that plastic doesn't biodegrade while paper bags do and eventually will turn into organic material in landfills. Paper can be composted while plastic bags can't be.

[Dion]

There is a popular misconception that paper bags are more environmentally friendly than plastic bags. Paper comes from trees and unless sustainable forestry is practised, making paper leads to the depletion of green cover, affecting local ecosystems and the extent of absorption of GHG emissions.


According to a 2007 study by Boustead Consulting & Associates, making a paper bag uses nearly four times the energy as it takes to produce a plastic bag and 20 times the amount of fresh water. If we want to recycle paper, the paper must first be collected and returned to pulp. This is done by using several chemicals including sodium hydroxide, hydrogen peroxide, and sodium silicate. The pulp must be washed with clean water to “de-ink”. Ecological footprint of a paper bag is therefore no different from that of a plastic bag. Both are equally sinful.

http://www.greenpurchasingasia.com/node/243

[OutOfTheCube]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

Another thing I remember from the 50s...

Purely out of curiosity, how old are you?

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by OutOfTheCube

Purely out of curiosity, how old are you?

If he remembers something from the 50's he'd likely be late sixties, maybe 70's, if not older.

[Oil Stain]

Originally Posted by Daradon

Interesting aside that is related to this paper post. Toilet paper is a massive consumer of tree pulp and by that fact, trees. And sad enough, the fluffiest paper comes from the trees with suitable bark and pulp. Old rare forests often in Canada.

http://blogs.nationalgeographic.com/...et-tissue.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/26/sc...26charmin.html

Not sure what to do with this, because few things are more sacred than toilet paper, even for me. I hate that recycled stuff, though some brands are getting better. Someone once turned me on to the modern bidets they have, eliminating 90% of the use one needs for toilet paper, but I cannot afford one.

Anyway, plastic, though it doesn't degrade as well paper, is often a better overall solution to many problems (meaning bags here, not toilet paper) and even better if you recycle and reuse them.

Just go the way of Thailand, and put wash guns beside the toilets. Then you don't have to use a single shred of paper.

If you think about it, using water to clean your bum makes a lot more sense then paper.

If a gob of crap lands on your face, would you rather just wipe it off with a tissue or wash your face? Same logic applies to your arse.