Pre-Emptive Striking

[HOZ]

Originally posted by kipperfan@Aug 21 2004, 12:59 AM

Far more than we would see in the West???

"Bush presented himself as "a man with Jesus in his heart." When a reporter asked him who his favorite philosopher was, Bush replied: "Christ, because he changed my heart."

Bush intertwines religion and politics, as much if not more than many muslim leaders.

intersting article

Yes George is haranging the masses at chapels across America tofight to the very last drop of their blood against the infidels in the Holy Lands....

Ummm I don't think so.

[kipperfan]

Originally posted by HOZ+Aug 21 2004, 01:06 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (HOZ @ Aug 21 2004, 01:06 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-kipperfan@Aug 21 2004, 12:59 AM

Far more than we would see in the West???

"Bush presented himself as "a man with Jesus in his heart." When a reporter asked him who his favorite philosopher was, Bush replied: "Christ, because he changed my heart."

Bush intertwines religion and politics, as much if not more than many muslim leaders.

intersting article

Yes George is haranging the masses at chapels across America tofight to the very last drop of their blood against the infidels in the Holy Lands....

Ummm I don't think so. [/b][/quote]
Oh, and Musharraf is??

[Cowperson]

Originally posted by kipperfan+Aug 21 2004, 12:59 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (kipperfan @ Aug 21 2004, 12:59 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Cowperson@Aug 21 2004, 12:26 AM

I later noted Musharraf, like most leaders in that part of the world, certainly intertwines faith into the script far more than we would expect of a leader here in the West.# I also said Musharraf's hands are no more or less dirty than the people who truly grasp the role of Muslim spiritual leaders, such as Iran's leading Ayatollah's.

Far more than we would see in the West???

"Bush presented himself as "a man with Jesus in his heart." When a reporter asked him who his favorite philosopher was, Bush replied: "Christ, because he changed my heart."

Bush intertwines religion and politics, as much if not more than many muslim leaders.

intersting article [/b][/quote]
If I read your link correctly, it's authored by a religious authority - a former Jesuit Priest - who says Bush is following false prophets and isn't religious enough and concludes:

How paradoxical, and how sad, that the President of the United States, with his heretical manipulation of religious language, insists on proving Karl Marx right.

Meanwhile, Musharraf (sorry to keep picking on him), in the text of his speech to Pakistani's immediately after-9/11 on Sept. 20, 2001, among other things, says:

The decision should reflect supremacy of righteousness and it should be in conformity with Islam. Whatever we are doing, is according to Islam and it upholds the principle of righteousness.

And

Allah Almighty says in the Holy Quran, "The one bestowed with sagacity is the one who gets a big favour from Allah". We have to take recourse to sanity. We have to save our nation from damage. We have to build up; our national respect. "Pakistan comes first, everything else comes later".

Some scholars and religious leaders are inclined towards taking emotional decisions. I would like to remind them the events of the first six years of the history of Islam.

The Islamic calendar started from migration. The significance of migration is manifested from the fact that the Holy Prophet (PBUH) went from Makkah to Madina. He (PBUH) migrated to safeguard Islam. What was migration? God forbid, was it an act of cowardice? The Holy Prophet (PBUH) signed the Charter of Madina (Meesaq-e-Madina) with the Jewish tribes. It was an act of sagacity. This treaty remained effective for six years. Three battles were fought with non-believers of Makkah during this period - the battle of Badr, Uhad and Khandaq. The Muslims emerged victorious in these battles with the non-believers of Makkah because the Jews had signed a treaty with the Muslims.

After six years, the Jews were visibly disturbed with the progress of Islam, which was getting stronger and stronger. They conspired to forge covert relations with the non-believers of Makkah. Realising the danger, the Holy Prophet (PBUH) signed the treaty of Hudaibiya with the Makkans who had been imposing wars on Islam. This was a no war pact.

I would like to draw your attention to one significant point of this pact. The last portion of the pact was required to be signed by the Holy Prophet (PBUH) as Muhammad Rasool Allah. The non-believers contested that they did not recognize Muhammad (PBUH) as the Prophet of Allah. They demanded to erase these words from the text of the treaty. The Holy Prophet(PBUH) agreed but Hazrat Umar (R.A) protested against it. He got emotional and asked the Holy Prophet (PBUH) if he was not the Messenger of God (God forbid) and whether the Muslims were not on the right path while signing the treaty. The Holy Prophet (PBUH) advised Hazrat Umar (R.A) not to be led by emotions as the dictates of national thinking demanded signing of the treaty at that time. He (PBUH) said, this was advantageous to Islam and as years would pass by you would come to know of its benefits. This is exactly what happened. Six months later in the battle of Khyber, Muslims, by the Grace of Allah, again became victorious. It should be remembered that this became possible because Makkans could not attack because of the treaty. On 8 Hijra by the Grace of Allah glory of Islam spread to Makka. What is the lesson for us in this? The lesson is that when there is a crisis situation, the path of wisdom is better than the path of emotions. Therefore, we have to take a strategic decision.

http://www.infopak.gov.pk/President_Addres...ss-19-09-01.htm

I picked the speech at random off Google. I'm sure its fairly representative of what he might say in an address to his countrymen and fairly representative of what most leaders in that part of the world would include in a speech.

Now . . . . if you're trying to tell me that's the kind of thing that surfaces in GW Bush speeches I'm gonna start laughing.

Bush is a devout Christian and it shows up more often than any President we've seen in recent memory, something I don't like by the way, but it pales in comparison to what a typical leader in the Islamic world might be spitting out.

And that was my only point.

Cowperson

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally posted by kipperfan@Aug 21 2004, 01:06 AM

Thats insane.


The world is being "blown up" because of decade after decade of foriegn incroachment, imperialism, and looting done by western nations(Primarily USA) to the middle east. Muslim freedom fighters, and terrorist bombers arent doing this because they like bombs, or dying. Their "blowing up the world" becasue they have been abused for years and no one in the western world cares. They see this as the only option left, are they right..........??

It's insane?

What's done is done. We can't change it. Should we just let them have their revenge now and kill a few thousand more of us and all the Jews in Israel?

Can you tell me when we're square so I can go back to my life?

And no, it's not even close to their only option. To believe that IS insane.

[kipperfan]

How about this:


"Today, in our Nation's Capital and around the country, we pause to acknowledge our reliance on almighty God, to join in gratitude for His blessings, and to seek His guidance in our lives and for our nation."

Or this:

"Prayer also teaches us to trust, to accept that God's plan unfolds in His time, not our own; that trust is not always easy, as we discover in our own lives, but trust is the source of ultimate confidence. We affirm that all of life, and all of history, rests entirely on the character of our creation and our Creator. And His love and His mercy extend to all and endure forever. "

He may not by as extreme as Musharraf, but clearly Bush is letting religion into politics, just as Musharraf, and others have done in the middle east.

speech

[Displaced Flames fan]

Primarily by the USA? Come on.

I expect you to explain how the USA is the #1 encroacher, imperialist and looter of the middle east.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally posted by kipperfan@Aug 21 2004, 01:36 AM
How about this:


"Today, in our Nation's Capital and around the country, we pause to acknowledge our reliance on almighty God, to join in gratitude for His blessings, and to seek His guidance in our lives and for our nation."

Or this:

"Prayer also teaches us to trust, to accept that God's plan unfolds in His time, not our own; that trust is not always easy, as we discover in our own lives, but trust is the source of ultimate confidence. We affirm that all of life, and all of history, rests entirely on the character of our creation and our Creator. And His love and His mercy extend to all and endure forever. "

He may not by as extreme as Musharraf, but clearly Bush is letting religion into politics, just as Musharraf, and others have done in the middle east.

speech

That speech was given in recognition of the National Day of Prayer, which is an annual event, not a Bush holiday. Did you think he would talk about education?

Find a speech on a political subject where he invoked that much talk about religion. You can't.

[kipperfan]

Originally posted by Displaced Flames fan+Aug 21 2004, 01:31 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Displaced Flames fan @ Aug 21 2004, 01:31 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-kipperfan@Aug 21 2004, 01:06 AM

Thats insane.


The world is being "blown up" because of decade after decade of foriegn incroachment, imperialism, and looting done by western nations(Primarily USA) to the middle east. Muslim freedom fighters, and terrorist bombers arent doing this because they like bombs, or dying. Their "blowing up the world" becasue they have been abused for years and no one in the western world cares. They see this as the only option left, are they right..........??

It's insane?

What's done is done. We can't change it. Should we just let them have their revenge now and kill a few thousand more of us and all the Jews in Israel?

Can you tell me when we're square so I can go back to my life?

And no, it's not even close to their only option. To believe that IS insane.[/b][/quote]
Thats just it though, Whats done isnt done, its not even close to done, it just keeps happening over and over again, decade after decade. If it was done, and we, as a global community were working together to put the pieces togther, then, maybe, you could say whats done is done.

When can YOU go back to "life". This is the TYPICAL american iggnorance that people dislike. What are you doing that is so un-regular?? Worrying about Bush? Thinking about Iraq? Unless your a soldier you have NO argument here. Americans like Canadians have it real, real good, and im pretty sure you can go back to your life whenever the hell you like, noone will stop you. But the Iraqis on the other hand CANT just go back to their life. Their lifes have been ruinded, their homes destoryed, family members murdered and soverignty gone, so please tell me Displaced, when can they go back to their lives, when are they going to have a home to go back to again??

"When were square" Man, you are so iggnorant.
Square with who, the Iraqis, yeah real square, you murdered there citizens, destroyed there land, and took over their country, what exactly did any Iraqi do to you??? America had no right to "liberate" people that didnt want to be "liberated", and have no right placing democracy where it doenst belong. America isnt square with anyone, they have lied and cheated most every country in the middle east over the past 30 years. So when are we square you ask... when America changes its CURRENT foriegn policy, and rights the wrongs it has created in the middle east and worldwide.

[Cowperson]

Originally posted by kipperfan@Aug 21 2004, 01:36 AM
How about this:


"Today, in our Nation's Capital and around the country, we pause to acknowledge our reliance on almighty God, to join in gratitude for His blessings, and to seek His guidance in our lives and for our nation."

Or this:

"Prayer also teaches us to trust, to accept that God's plan unfolds in His time, not our own; that trust is not always easy, as we discover in our own lives, but trust is the source of ultimate confidence. We affirm that all of life, and all of history, rests entirely on the character of our creation and our Creator. And His love and His mercy extend to all and endure forever. "

He may not by as extreme as Musharraf, but clearly Bush is letting religion into politics, just as Musharraf, and others have done in the middle east.

speech

Musharraf's speech was to 140 million Pakistani's addressing a major globe shattering event.

As Dis noted, you picked a GW Bush speech directed at a religious event.

You can't make your point.

I'm a big believer in the separation of church and state and therefore not a fan of GW Bush in this regard. As I said, he DOES reference God too much for my liking . . . . but you're not gonna find anything from GW Bush remotely comparable to what a Muslim leader might thrown into a speech as evidenced by the Musharraf talk I presented.

Again, that was my only point.

Cowperson

[kipperfan]

Originally posted by kipperfan@Aug 21 2004, 01:52 AM
Thats just it though, Whats done isnt done, its not even close to done, it just keeps happening over and over again, decade after decade. If it was done, and we, as a global community were working together to put the pieces togther, then, maybe, you could say whats done is done.

When can YOU go back to "life". This is the TYPICAL american iggnorance that people dislike. What are you doing that is so un-regular?? Worrying about Bush? Thinking about Iraq? Unless your a soldier you have NO argument here. Americans like Canadians have it real, real good, and im pretty sure you can go back to your life whenever the hell you like, noone will stop you. But the Iraqis on the other hand CANT just go back to their life. Their lifes have been ruinded, their homes destoryed, family members murdered and soverignty gone, so please tell me Displaced, when can they go back to their lives, when are they going to have a home to go back to again??

"When were square" Man, you are so iggnorant.
Square with who, the Iraqis, yeah real square, you murdered there citizens, destroyed there land, and took over their country, what exactly did any Iraqi do to you??? America had no right to "liberate" people that didnt want to be "liberated", and have no right placing democracy where it doenst belong. America isnt square with anyone, they have lied and cheated most every country in the middle east over the past 30 years. So when are we square you ask... when America changes its CURRENT foriegn policy, and rights the wrongs it has created in the middle east and worldwide.

I made my point, Ive attached again for your ease of viewing.

[Cowperson]

Originally posted by kipperfan+Aug 21 2004, 02:18 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (kipperfan @ Aug 21 2004, 02:18 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-kipperfan@Aug 21 2004, 01:52 AM
Thats just it though, Whats done isnt done, its not even close to done, it just keeps happening over and over again, decade after decade. If it was done, and we, as a global community were working together to put the pieces togther, then, maybe, you could say whats done is done.

When can YOU go back to "life". This is the TYPICAL american iggnorance that people dislike. What are you doing that is so un-regular?? Worrying about Bush? Thinking about Iraq? Unless your a soldier you have NO argument here. Americans like Canadians have it real, real good, and im pretty sure you can go back to your life whenever the hell you like, noone will stop you. But the Iraqis on the other hand CANT just go back to their life. Their lifes have been ruinded, their homes destoryed, family members murdered and soverignty gone, so please tell me Displaced, when can they go back to their lives, when are they going to have a home to go back to again??

"When were square" Man, you are so iggnorant.
Square with who, the Iraqis, yeah real square, you murdered there citizens, destroyed there land, and took over their country, what exactly did any Iraqi do to you??? America had no right to "liberate" people that didnt want to be "liberated", and have no right placing democracy where it doenst belong. America isnt square with anyone, they have lied and cheated most every country in the middle east over the past 30 years. So when are we square you ask... when America changes its CURRENT foriegn policy, and rights the wrongs it has created in the middle east and worldwide.

I made my point, Ive attached again for your ease of viewing. [/b][/quote]
Are you inferring that actually has something to do with what you and I are talking about?

Looked like your address to Displaced to me.

Cowperson

[kipperfan]

My appoligies Cow, I got the two arguments, 1 with you, 1 with displaced, mixed up.

As far as out arguement goes........................I have been searching the White House database of old Bush speaches, and honestly I will concede the fact that Muslim leaders(Musharraf) do use the name and concept of Allah as a weapon against western society, and christian views, where as Bush uses religion is a different, perhaps less harmful way.

It seems to me Bush uses religion and Jesus as a way to justify his actions, where as it seems Musharraf uses religion and Allah as a way of motivating his citizens INTO action. Perhaps my statment that Bush uses as much or more Religion in politics than Muslim leaders was mis guided. I got a little caught up in the "bush hatin'" and went to far! But I do, honestly, view Bush's use of religion in mainstream politics to be dishonest, and unfair to many Americans.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Kipperfan...you are walking on thin ice and you'd better watch your step.

You completely misinterpreted my statements and then you called me a murderer and ignorant.

It's clear you hate Americans. Like I told Lanny earlier, that's the cool thing to do now so who can blame you for being a follower.

What's done IS done. It can't be changed. We, however, can't let terrorists have their way with us until they've satisfied their thirst for revenge. That was my point, lost on you. What you were saying seemed to be advocating just that...that we are getting what we deserve and we'd better take our medicine. Doesn't work that way.

I'm living my life just fine right now, although it has been impacted in a serious way by terrorism I have recovered and moved on. The comments regarding being square and getting back to my life were in response to the hypothetical of letting them kill some more of us to quench their thirst for revenge, again....lost on you.

Tell me, does it feel good to hate a Nationality based on the actions of a few?

[kipperfan]

Originally posted by Displaced Flames fan@Aug 21 2004, 02:45 AM
Kipperfan...you are walking on thin ice and you'd better watch your step.

You completely misinterpreted my statements and then you called me a murderer and ignorant.

It's clear you hate Americans. Like I told Lanny earlier, that's the cool thing to do now so who can blame you for being a follower.

What's done IS done. It can't be changed. We, however, can't let terrorists have their way with us until they've satisfied their thirst for revenge. That was my point, lost on you. What you were saying seemed to be advocating just that...that we are getting what we deserve and we'd better take our medicine. Doesn't work that way.

I'm living my life just fine right now, although it has been impacted in a serious way by terrorism I have recovered and moved on. The comments regarding being square and getting back to my life were in response to the hypothetical of letting them kill some more of us to quench their thirst for revenge, again....lost on you.

Tell me, does it feel good to hate a Nationality based on the actions of a few?

Thin ice??? If thats what you call reality.

I called you Ignorant, simple put, beacuse you are, you lack of respect for anti-american POV's makes you such. You are the exact opposite of the hard core lefty anti-americans, your just as bad but on the other side of the coin.

And it is YOU misinterpreting statments, Ive never called you a murder, quote that one for me buddy?

"Its clear you hate Americans" No , no wrong, quote any of my statments that show my hatred for american citizens? Americans gov't, GW Bush, american foriegn policy yes I do hate those, I am not petty like you, and I WILL NOT right of the lives of Americans beacsue of the actions of their leaders. And Dicplaced, some new for ya, the anti-american sennitment hasnt risen beacuse its "cool" I know americans like to tell themselves that, but its sadly not true. We, on mass, are showing dislike towards your nation beacuse their forign policy has no respect for the rights and oppinions of non americans. This senntiment is fueled by the American dominence that is flaunted around the world.

Your right, like I said 30 mins ago, whats done is done.........................................but, hey transplant, its not done. It is nowhere near done, in fact its getting much worse, the further bush gets into his "agenda", the more the rights and soverignty of citizens aroudn the world will lose, all in the name of "Democracy" and "freedom"

Remember up there ^^ when I said your iggnorant??? While here it is:
"I'm living my life just fine right now, although it has been impacted in a serious way by terrorism I have recovered and moved on"

No matter how deeply you think you were effected by terrorism, it PALES in comparision to having your entire innocent family murdered by invaders into your country, who take your values and religion,a nd discredit them, all in the name of "democracy" and "freedom"

[Displaced Flames fan]

I'm done. For God sake, you can't even keep straight which person you're arguing with.

And YES...you misinterpreted what I said...and yes you said I murdered innocent Iraqis.

No, my family wasn't murdered by invaders, but some American's parents were murdered by invaders on September 11th. I only lost my job....but it had a severe effect on myself and my children....who are my ONLY concern in all of this.

Have kids? Didn't think so.

[Cowperson]

Originally posted by kipperfan@Aug 21 2004, 02:33 AM
My appoligies Cow, I got the two arguments, 1 with you, 1 with displaced, mixed up.

As far as out arguement goes........................I have been searching the White House database of old Bush speaches, and honestly I will concede the fact that Muslim leaders(Musharraf) do use the name and concept of Allah as a weapon against western society, and christian views, where as Bush uses religion is a different, perhaps less harmful way.

It seems to me Bush uses religion and Jesus as a way to justify his actions, where as it seems Musharraf uses religion and Allah as a way of motivating his citizens INTO action. Perhaps my statment that Bush uses as much or more Religion in politics than Muslim leaders was mis guided. I got a little caught up in the "bush hatin'" and went to far! But I do, honestly, view Bush's use of religion in mainstream politics to be dishonest, and unfair to many Americans.

As I stated earlier, I'm a large believer in the separation of church and state and was in a holy row (pun) on this site regarding the Ten Commandments monument in Alabama only a little while ago.

So . . . we're probably closer on that point than you might think.

Cowperson

[Mike F]

Dipping my toe into this argument...

America had no right to "liberate" people that didnt want to be "liberated", and have no right placing democracy where it doenst belong.

That's just a ridiculous statement. The Iraqi's never wanted to be occupied or have (in their opinion) a puppet gov't installed, but most have been dying (literally and figuratively) to be free of Saddam and living in a free democracy for decades.

Had the US gone in, wiped out Saddam and his army and immediately left, leaving the country for the free Iraqi people to mold into their own democracy the would have been eccstatic and would have praised the US liberators for decades to come. Yes, even if it meant some innocents were killed and much of the country was ruined. It's highly unrealistic, but it was their dream.

Had the US gone in, wiped out Saddam and his army, stayed and fixed everything in 6 months and held free elections, the Iraqi's would have been somewhat emasculated but overall happy to be liberated. It's unrealistic given the poor planning, but it's what they were promised.

To use a favorite phrase of yours, to say that democracy doesn't "belong" in Iraq is completely ignorant. I've argued long and hard against the war for a variety of reasons, but even I have never tried to claim that the Iraqi's didn't want to be freed, or that democracy didn't belong there.

[calculoso]

Originally posted by Mike F@Aug 20 2004, 09:28 PM
Had the US gone in, wiped out Saddam and his army and immediately left, leaving the country for the free Iraqi people to mold into their own democracy the would have been eccstatic and would have praised the US liberators for decades to come. Yes, even if it meant some innocents were killed and much of the country was ruined. It's highly unrealistic, but it was their dream.

This would have been the terrorists' wet dreams too. They'd love to have an uncontrolled country to try and shape in any way they want. They did much of that sort of thing in Afganistan. I don't know that the Americans had much choice but to stay, although they've stayed too long and made too many mistakes.

Other than that, I agree with you.

[kipperfan]

Originally posted by Mike F@Aug 21 2004, 03:28 AM
Dipping my toe into this argument...

America had no right to "liberate" people that didnt want to be "liberated", and have no right placing democracy where it doenst belong.

That's just a ridiculous statement. The Iraqi's never wanted to be occupied or have (in their opinion) a puppet gov't installed, but most have been dying (literally and figuratively) to be free of Saddam and living in a free democracy for decades.

Had the US gone in, wiped out Saddam and his army and immediately left, leaving the country for the free Iraqi people to mold into their own democracy the would have been eccstatic and would have praised the US liberators for decades to come. Yes, even if it meant some innocents were killed and much of the country was ruined. It's highly unrealistic, but it was their dream.

Had the US gone in, wiped out Saddam and his army, stayed and fixed everything in 6 months and held free elections, the Iraqi's would have been somewhat emasculated but overall happy to be liberated. It's unrealistic given the poor planning, but it's what they were promised.

To use a favorite phrase of yours, to say that democracy doesn't "belong" in Iraq is completely ignorant. I've argued long and hard against the war for a variety of reasons, but even I have never tried to claim that the Iraqi's didn't want to be freed, or that democracy didn't belong there.

Ok fine......Just anwser me this question then: What RIGHT did the the United States of America have, deciding to come into a SOVERIGN nation and overthrowing the leader violently, destroying the country, killing thousands of civilians, and installing a puppet democracy??

Did I miss something? Does the US now have the power and jurisdication of the United Nations? Since when can individual nations make those kind of decsions?

I am not saying Saddam wasnt brutal, and I am not saying that there wasnt a lot of his people who wanted him gone, but things like this have to be decided upon on a world stage, with PROPER evidence, showing that Saddam was a growing risk and had to be stopped. But the "coalition of the willing" didnt do it like that did they? Why? Maybe becasue Saddam was no more a viable risk in 2003 then he was in 2002, 2001.....1999 etc. I am not saying the president lied, im sure he did get some bad "intelligence", but it sure is funny they didnt find 1 tiny piece of evidence in the entire country that supports the fact that chemical/biological/nuclear projects were going on. I cant believe the intelligence was that bad. So basically the main reason for the American presence in Iraq in the first place, turned out to be a lie.

And democracy DOESNT belong in Iraq, not now, not yet. Democracy is something that should be wanted by the people, and created by the people, like how it happened here in canada and the us, it shouldnt be INSTALLED upon the people just to satisfy others (perhaps collilition of the willing?) in the international community.

[Cowperson]

Originally posted by Mike F@Aug 21 2004, 03:28 AM
Dipping my toe into this argument...

America had no right to "liberate" people that didnt want to be "liberated", and have no right placing democracy where it doenst belong.

That's just a ridiculous statement. The Iraqi's never wanted to be occupied or have (in their opinion) a puppet gov't installed, but most have been dying (literally and figuratively) to be free of Saddam and living in a free democracy for decades.

Had the US gone in, wiped out Saddam and his army and immediately left, leaving the country for the free Iraqi people to mold into their own democracy the would have been eccstatic and would have praised the US liberators for decades to come. Yes, even if it meant some innocents were killed and much of the country was ruined. It's highly unrealistic, but it was their dream.

Had the US gone in, wiped out Saddam and his army, stayed and fixed everything in 6 months and held free elections, the Iraqi's would have been somewhat emasculated but overall happy to be liberated. It's unrealistic given the poor planning, but it's what they were promised.

To use a favorite phrase of yours, to say that democracy doesn't "belong" in Iraq is completely ignorant. I've argued long and hard against the war for a variety of reasons, but even I have never tried to claim that the Iraqi's didn't want to be freed, or that democracy didn't belong there.

We don't agree on much Mike F but that was a well reasoned and mature post from your side of the debate.

Cowperson