More 'tolerance' CPC style

[Resolute 14]

Originally posted by Flame On@May 22 2005, 03:36 PM
What's stupid is anyone that cops out of an accusation by lamely saying there's a media bias that has a conspiracy to make them look bad. Tried reading the sun lately for example?

Indeed, I have. I've also noticed that the Calgary Sun is not based in the East, where much of the problem lies. If anything, the Calgary Sun is unbalanced the other way (in particular, a few writers like Corbella), however, as has been mentioned many times, we arent the voters politicians needs to influence, as we are worthless on the national scale. The state of the media where the voters do matter is at issue here.

[Claeren]

Usually the word is a problem if it has been used to dehumanize the people you are refering too.

Nicknames of this sort are ALWAYS used in war time, it makes killing your enemy and the innocents around them morally acceptable and even in many cases desirable. Theocratically peaceful Religous societies use them most thoroughly, as they have the greatest moral hurdle of hypocracy and the greatest aversion to pragmatism to overcome ...


Currently the terms 'terrorist', 'insurgent', and 'collateral damage' are used by the more public relations savy American Empire to dehumanize their murder of thousands upon thousands of people and to even create the political capital needed to continue the slaughter of both the 'enemy' and their own young men, but terms like Hun, Jap, Kook(sp?), etc have all been used in this way. Both by war promotors and politicians as well as the (often morally confused) soldiers in the field...

Slavery is similiar and the slang (and there are more terms then just the N-word) is much the same story...


Canuck has never been used in this way so it is not a problem. I am sure there are words in other cultures that (assuming they observe political correctness or tolarance as national/natural virtues) would be considered racist/offensive as opposed to slang... 'Gui Low' (sp? Chinese, would be an example but again there are far worse... )


Claeren.

[Flame On]

Originally posted by CaptainCrunch@May 22 2005, 05:27 PM

Is that how you dismiss things, by calling people a drama queen? niiiiiccce. Your the one that re-opened the whole Libranos thing, and then your the one that said

Further I couldn't care less about brandishing the KKK. I don't see how that's offensive unless you're a part of that org, or you're using it out of context. Which I don't think they were.

Alluding to your feeling that the Conservatives shouldn't be insulted by the KKK thing because they similar to or part of the KKK.

And I'm still waiting for you to provide Volpe's statements of indignation over the T.V. show the Sopranos before the Libranos poster came out because I want to see where he's more concerned about protecting the sentiments of Italian Canadians as oppossed to smearing the conservatives.

But I'm dropping this debate with you, neither of us is going to see eye to eye, and when people start using terms like "Get your head our of your rectum" or your a drama queen, it dosen't take long for thread lockings and suspensions to take place.

Posted on: May 22 2005, 10:05 AM
If your going to live up to this higher standards, then you should be absolutely outraged by the Liberal comments about the KKK, cross burning, Parrishes rants against the Amercans and others.

That was your post where you brought up the kkk statement.

Posted on: May 22 2005, 10:22 AM
Shall we start this up again Captain?
Or you could be justified with those comments because of their disparagment against Italians by maintaining they're all mafia types. Look that's Italians they've got preconceived ideas about and now "Japs" too.
Oh and for the record I'm with you on the statements about Americans by Parrish, but oh look she was dealt with. A message was sent that that's not tolerated in the Liberal party.

Followed by my response to that. Are you just mistaken Captain when you tried to maintain I was the one that reopened it all?
All I'm saying is I can see how an Italian Canadian, a minister of immegration, would knee jerk to a stereo type. If you don't agree it is one or you don't mind that it was used, you're right we won't see eye to eye. Further I only used the term about a head being up a rectum; which you may or may not know is an ass, after it was used to me by Mean Mr. Mustard, verbatim.

Sorry ot say this but pull your head out of your ass.

Perhaps it's only alright though if a Con supporter says it, i don't know.
Finally in order to put this behind us again, I will admit speaking rashly when I said I don't mind it being brandished. I didn't really mean that. I don't think all cons are in any way near that, nor do I think it was right for him to say that, any more than I think the reason he said it was wise either. Allow me to retract that statement owing to hot headedness at the time good sir. :/

[Reggie Dunlop]

Steve Fletcher is a big fat stupid gimp. 'Nuf said.

I mean, I've seen other quadraplegics and I understand their condition, but come on, this man has really let himself go. What an unsightly balloon.

Bad enough he has to have an attendant sit in the Commons by his side in case he needs his ass wiped or whatever, but really, who is he to be judging others?

He's lucky. If it weren't for the Conservative Party, he'd be selling pencils on some street corner.


How's that for stereotypes?

[TheCommodoreAfro]

Originally posted by Shawnski+May 23 2005, 09:14 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Shawnski @ May 23 2005, 09:14 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-TheCommodoreAfro@May 22 2005, 04:50 PM
That's all well and fine. But the term "Jap" is roughly akin to dropping the n-bomb.

I have pondered the term "Japs" for a couple days now. It is not the first time I have heard it. And it won't be the last time.

At what point does a nickname for a countries peoples become "politically incorrect"?

"Japs" versus "Japanese" is no different to me than
"Brits" versus "British" or
"Swedes" versus "Swedish" or
"Finns" versus "Finnish"

Brits, Swedes and Finns seem to have no problem with the nickname.

Or is the root problem that the "normalized" plurality has to end in "ish" to be OK to shorten into a nickname, but if it ends in "ese" then shortening the nickname is taboo?

"Chinks" is also a politically inappropriate reference to "Chinese". This one appears more obvious. Someone added a "k" inappropriately. Regardless, I am sure "Chins" would have still failed the "ese" test.

Now, the French nickname of "Frogs" is clearly a problem. But they could have avoided that by calling themselves "Frenchese" or "Frenchish". Their fault.

And how in the hell did "Canucks" come outta "Canadians" or "Yanks" come out of "Americans"..... ahhhh, they ended in "ans" so no one is concerned about those two anyway....

On that note, "Germans" aren't called "Germs", 'cause they, too, would end in "ans".

What gives people? Where do the boundaries lie in what is OK, or what is not? When exactly does that boundary get crossed?

My post is obviously in jest, but the questions are real. No offense intended to anyone.... except Canucks.... or their fans. [/b][/quote]
To put it to a litmus test, you should invite my wife and her friends over for tea sometime, then ask if any of the "Japs" in attendence would like some. (I wouldn't wish the results on you Shawnski, cos' your an upstanding citizen an all For whatever reason, it's a very bad slight, and I wasn't exaggerating when I compared it to the n-bomb. The Japanese community is quite small in Canada in comparison to the other East Asian minorities in Canada, so it's unlikely that it's 100% common knowledge, but "Japs" is up there with "Chinks", or "####s". Note how almost anytime anyone says the word, it is also either preceeded or followed by something unnice.

The history is difficult to pin down - not sure if it's an intrinsic linguistic thing, but a lot of it just has to do with how the word was propagated througout history with it's association that the Japanese race were one of second class citizens. Don't know exactly, but no one I know would survive the litmus test ande it's what I base my whole reasoning on.

[Reggie Dunlop]

Fletcher is in a wheelchair. That means you... have...to ... talk... reeeeeal... slow ... to him. Better yet, speak directly to his assistant and refer to Fletcher in the abstract sense.

I saw a quick clip where an NDP MP was asked about the incident. She said we should all get over it and get back to the important issues.

Fletcher screwed up. It happens. He learned something.

Using a racial perjorative is a bad thing.

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by Faid1+May 23 2005, 01:31 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Faid1 @ May 23 2005, 01:31 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-Shawnski@May 22 2005, 05:14 PM

At what point does a nickname for a countries peoples become "politically incorrect"?

[/b][/quote]
There's a pretty easy way to figure out if a word is 'politically correct' or not. If the person you're referring to doesn't appreciate being referred to in that way, and takes offense, then you've got yourself a derogatory term.

Apparently some people here think it's up to the user of the term's discretion as to whether or not what they're saying is derogatory (or racist). I'd suggest it's up to the person/group being called the name, rather than the one calling it.

Seems to make sense, no?

It seems like some of you guys are fighting to the death to refer to people/groups with whatever hate words YOU deem necessary. It's not up to you. Maybe you don't have to call any group/people names based on their religion, race, or country of origin. If Japanese people (or any others) take offense to use of the word 'Jap' (especially in this context, WWII), then why does one have to use it? Can't you/they just say 'Japanese, Person from Japan'? It's interesting that some posters are defending this MP's 'right to be derogatory' because the Japanese did horrible things to the Allies in WWII. I don't see a lot of Germans being referred to as 'krauts' around the political circles these days... why do the 'krauts' get off but the 'japs' term is still alive and kicking?

Pick something else to marginlize them on outside of race/religion/country. Or don't, and grow up instead.

[CaramonLS]

Originally posted by Agamemnon+May 23 2005, 05:01 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Agamemnon @ May 23 2005, 05:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

There's a pretty easy way to figure out if a word is 'politically correct' or not. If the person you're referring to doesn't appreciate being referred to in that way, and takes offense, then you've got yourself a derogatory term.

Apparently some people here think it's up to the user of the term's discretion as to whether or not what they're saying is derogatory (or racist). I'd suggest it's up to the person/group being called the name, rather than the one calling it.

Seems to make sense, no?

It seems like some of you guys are fighting to the death to refer to people/groups with whatever hate words YOU deem necessary. It's not up to you. Maybe you don't have to call any group/people names based on their religion, race, or country of origin. If Japanese people (or any others) take offense to use of the word 'Jap' (especially in this context, WWII), then why does one have to use it? Can't you/they just say 'Japanese, Person from Japan'? It's interesting that some posters are defending this MP's 'right to be derogatory' because the Japanese did horrible things to the Allies in WWII. I don't see a lot of Germans being referred to as 'krauts' around the political circles these days... why do the 'krauts' get off but the 'japs' term is still alive and kicking?

Pick something else to marginlize them on outside of race/religion/country. Or don't, and grow up instead. [/b][/quote]
Because I'd say the Majority of people see the racist term for Japanese people to be "Nip".

Obviously if there are some Japanese readers on this site I'd like some insight, maybe I'm just being ignorant, but in my opinion Jap isn't on the same level as "n****r".

[MarchHare]

Because I'd say the Majority of people see the racist term for Japanese people to be "Nip".

Obviously if there are some Japanese readers on this site I'd like some insight, maybe I'm just being ignorant, but in my opinion Jap isn't on the same level as "n****r".

I'm not Japanese, but I can tell you with absolute certainty that "Jap" is just as racist as ********, chink, etc.

I remember a similar thread in another forum a few years ago discussing Bush using the term "Paki". Many people were trying to defend him because "Paki is just short for Pakistani", ignoring the fact that Paki, like Jap, has been recognized as a racial slur for decades.

The fact is that Jap is a racist term, and an MP ought to have known better than to have used it. What I find interesting, though, is that some on this forum are continuing to defend its usage even after the MP in question apologized and admitted he was wrong to use that word.

[Claeren]

Originally posted by MarchHare@May 23 2005, 10:19 AM

The fact is that Jap is a racist term, and an MP ought to have known better than to have used it. What I find interesting, though, is that some on this forum are continuing to defend its usage even after the MP in question apologized and admitted he was wrong to use that word.

And thus the CPC supporters manage to maintain their hard won 'racist but not' image.....


Claeren.

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by CaramonLS+May 23 2005, 05:04 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (CaramonLS @ May 23 2005, 05:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

There's a pretty easy way to figure out if a word is 'politically correct' or not. If the person you're referring to doesn't appreciate being referred to in that way, and takes offense, then you've got yourself a derogatory term.

Apparently some people here think it's up to the user of the term's discretion as to whether or not what they're saying is derogatory (or racist). I'd suggest it's up to the person/group being called the name, rather than the one calling it.

Seems to make sense, no?

It seems like some of you guys are fighting to the death to refer to people/groups with whatever hate words YOU deem necessary. It's not up to you. Maybe you don't have to call any group/people names based on their religion, race, or country of origin. If Japanese people (or any others) take offense to use of the word 'Jap' (especially in this context, WWII), then why does one have to use it? Can't you/they just say 'Japanese, Person from Japan'? It's interesting that some posters are defending this MP's 'right to be derogatory' because the Japanese did horrible things to the Allies in WWII. I don't see a lot of Germans being referred to as 'krauts' around the political circles these days... why do the 'krauts' get off but the 'japs' term is still alive and kicking?

Pick something else to marginlize them on outside of race/religion/country. Or don't, and grow up instead.

Because I'd say the Majority of people see the racist term for Japanese people to be "Nip".

Obviously if there are some Japanese readers on this site I'd like some insight, maybe I'm just being ignorant, but in my opinion Jap isn't on the same level as "n****r".[/b][/quote]
Well, as I point out in my post, the 'majority of people' have nothing to do with labelling the term derogatory. It is the people being called the name that decide, not the 'majority' of all people. There used to be a time when the 'majority' of North America used the n-word a lot... I doubt there was ever a time when a 'majority' of black people appreciated it though.

I'm not sure if you can 'scale' or rank the rudeness of ethnic slurs.

Why would you want to? What would be the motivation behind that? To find which slurs are acceptable, and which aren't?

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by Claeren+May 23 2005, 06:42 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Claeren @ May 23 2005, 06:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-MarchHare@May 23 2005, 10:19 AM

The fact is that Jap is a racist term, and an MP ought to have known better than to have used it. What I find interesting, though, is that some on this forum are continuing to defend its usage even after the MP in question apologized and admitted he was wrong to use that word.

And thus the CPC supporters manage to maintain their hard won 'racist but not' image.....


Claeren. [/b][/quote]
And, to be fair, he doesn't actually retract his belief in the word, just his use of it at the time.

"I allowed those emotions to colour my remarks," he said. "I should have chosen more appropriate language, and will do so in the future. I apologize for any offence I may have caused, and retract my choice of words without reservation."

So, he shouldn't have used that word in that case, is what he seems to be saying. He's not apologizing for saying it, he's apologizing 'for any offence I may have caused'. This reads to me that he didn't mean to offend... but doesn't apologize for being inherently offensive.

[Resolute 14]

That's a rather, for lack of a better word, liberal assessment of what he was apologizing for. Do you find a problem with him referring to those that abused POW's the way they did as "bas**rds", or simply his addition of the racial ephitet? He apologized for the unnecessary inclusion of the word "Jap", what more do you want?

Seriously, are you people so petty and vindictive that you wont even let a man apologize without accusing the apology of being worthless?

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by Snakeeye@May 23 2005, 10:06 PM
That's a rather, for lack of a better word, liberal assessment of what he was apologizing for. Do you find a problem with him referring to those that abused POW's the way they did as "bas**rds", or simply his addition of the racial ephitet? He apologized for the unnecessary inclusion of the word "Jap", what more do you want?

Seriously, are you people so petty and vindictive that you wont even let a man apologize without accusing the apology of being worthless?

Well, I quoted his apology for truth. If I'm lying, please, by all means, call me out.

If he's a politician, I suppose I'd want him to apologize for any racist overtones, and then declare that he's not a racist. It's a little late now, no point in apologizing for the same incident twice.

The apology is for causing other people to be offended, rather than using (and believing in) the word. Are those the same thing to you?

Who are my people? He uses the racist term, and I'm 'petty and vindictive' for pointing out that he didn't, 'really' apologize for it? That's a rather conservative assessment (to continue the lame partisanship).

Seriously, aren't you guys tired of the Liberal/Conservative crap? I don't care for either party, but some people here like to talk till their blue (or red) in the face about it.

But, I guess I'm wrong and you're right, because you say so. Sheesh.

If people here believe the use of the term 'Jap' is, in any way, justified by the actions of the Japanese in WWII... get over it. You (probably) weren't even alive then. Neither were most 'Japs'. Lots of people have done lots of bad things. History is NO justification for racism. Period. To even attempt to bring 60 year old atrocities into justifying derogatory slurs is ignorant. If that's 'liberal' then paint me red (blech).

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by Snakeeye@May 22 2005, 12:09 PM
But then, you are evidently living proof of the double standard that exists in this country. Liberals get a free ride, while Conservatives are forced to live up to an impossible standard.

As for Martin's Bertuzzi-like press conference, I'm not surprised you are sympathetic to him co-opting the air waves to try and save his own ass. Where past Prime Ministers have only done so in times of national crisis, Martin did so because of a personal crisis - he was in danger of losing his job.

As for returning the money, I have no faith in Martin and the Liberals other than to expect them to repay that money out of our own pockets. Perhaps Martin should repay that money out of his own wallet. I am certian he is saving more than enough by evading Canadian taxes on his shipping fleet.

1. The "impossible standard" is "don't say stupid racist sounding comments to reporters even if you think you have an excuse. It's really easy. Just don't say it. If he can't get his point across without using that kind of language he is either a) a racist or b ) a moron.

I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and say he's just a moron.

2. Re: Martin's dreadful 7 minute press conference.

I'll just never get the outrage over this. We have heard plenty of "this is the biggest corruption scandal in Canadian history" and the guy isn't allowed to pre-empt 7 minutes of prime-time? Either it's a big deal or it isn't. If you don't think it warrants a pre-empting of The OC then maybe you don't think it's a big deal?

Besides, nobody was forced to air his speech. Air-waves weren't "co-opted". Airwaves were given up voluntarily by the networks and stations.

[RougeUnderoos]

Regarding the term "Nips" or "he's a Nip" -- a Japanese friend of mine didn't believe me when I told her that the local morons use that as some sort of racist insult. She figured it was pretty much like trying to insult Canadians by calling us "Cans" or "he's a Can" because that's the start of the name of our country just like Nip is theirs. She wasn't insulted. She thought it was kind of funny that someone could be so dumb to think that would be an insult.

She didn't like Jap though, I know that.

[Resolute 14]

Originally posted by Agamemnon@May 23 2005, 03:16 PM
Well, I quoted his apology for truth. If I'm lying, please, by all means, call me out.

If he's a politician, I suppose I'd want him to apologize for any racist overtones, and then declare that he's not a racist. It's a little late now, no point in apologizing for the same incident twice.

The apology is for causing other people to be offended, rather than using (and believing in) the word. Are those the same thing to you?

Who are my people? He uses the racist term, and I'm 'petty and vindictive' for pointing out that he didn't, 'really' apologize for it? That's a rather conservative assessment (to continue the lame partisanship).

Well, as I said, I used the word liberal for lack of a better word. I wasnt referring to the political party, but rather your generous interpretation of what his apology means.

He used a word he shouldnt have. He immediately retracted and apologized for using a word that caused offense. I'm not entirely certian what else you want from him.

Rouge - spare me. You are not that obtuse. You know exactly what I meant by the "impossible double standard", and you know damn well it has nothing to do with individuals making stupid statements, but rather how people who make those statements are treated depending on their affiliation.

[TheCommodoreAfro]

Originally posted by CaramonLS@May 24 2005, 02:04 AM

Because I'd say the Majority of people see the racist term for Japanese people to be "Nip".

Obviously if there are some Japanese readers on this site I'd like some insight, maybe I'm just being ignorant, but in my opinion Jap isn't on the same level as "n****r".

I'm one of the closest things you're going to get to a local on this site, and believe you me it's not taken nicely by anyone.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by Snakeeye@May 23 2005, 05:27 PM
Rouge - spare me. You are not that obtuse. You know exactly what I meant by the "impossible double standard", and you know damn well it has nothing to do with individuals making stupid statements, but rather how people who make those statements are treated depending on their affiliation.

Geez, maybe I am that obtuse. I don't see the double standard.

If a Liberal MP had said the same thing he would have been chastised and forced to apologize and the CPCs would make a bit of noise about it and the right-leaners would be on here saying "see! see! see! they aren't so clean it's not reserved for one party"!

Hedy Fry gets punished to this day, and rightly so, for the dumb things she said. Carolyn Parrish got the boot. If a Liberal says something stupid we all hear about it. It isn't swept under the rug by the dastardly Liberal controlled media.

If a Conservative says something stupid they get the same treatment. Unfortunately for them it seems to happen more often.

[Faid1]

Originally posted by RougeUnderoos@May 23 2005, 03:50 PM
She didn't like Jap though, I know that.

So she doesn't understand why Nip is offensive but doesn't like "Jap".