A sad day for Canada

[longsuffering]

Originally posted by CaptainCrunch@May 21 2005, 09:58 AM

The fact that people go to sleep at night believing that Stephen Harper is a jack booted hate mongering, facist because the Liberal's tell them its true, makes me completely laugh.

We talk about Canadian's in a very high light, and I love Canada and the Canadian people, but in the back of my mind I think we've really over estimated our implied intelligence.

People believe the CPC is a full of jack booted hate mongerers because of all the venom that is spit out by members of that Party.

Don't blame the Liberals if the CPC makes itself an easy target.

And why not write what you really think?

"in the back of my mind I think we've really over estimated our implied intelligence because clearly I am much smarter than the majority of Canadians and I support the Conservative Party of Canada."

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally posted by longsuffering+May 22 2005, 05:48 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (longsuffering @ May 22 2005, 05:48 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-CaptainCrunch@May 21 2005, 09:58 AM

The fact that people go to sleep at night believing that Stephen Harper is a jack booted hate mongering, facist because the Liberal's tell them its true, makes me completely laugh.

We talk about Canadian's in a very high light, and I love Canada and the Canadian people, but in the back of my mind I think we've really over estimated our implied intelligence.

People believe the CPC is a full of jack booted hate mongerers because of all the venom that is spit out by members of that Party.

Don't blame the Liberals if the CPC makes itself an easy target.

And why not write what you really think?

"in the back of my mind I think we've really over estimated our implied intelligence because clearly I am much smarter than the majority of Canadians and I support the Conservative Party of Canada." [/b][/quote]
Nothing to do with the way that people vote, its the fact that people are willing to continue to vote for a corrupt party, that continually lies, tries to cover up thier own indiscretions and subverts the democratic process.

Nothing to do with me thinking I'm superior to anybody, I'm just baffled by what I hear.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally posted by Bend it like Bourgeois@May 22 2005, 03:54 AM

National Unity? You might want to rethink that one.

I don't need to rethink it, I know it's true. I've moved all over this country since the early 90s, and I am confident when I say that national unity is better now. I'm not saying it is perfect, but if you think people are disillusioned now, it was 10X worse just after Mulroney quit. Maybe you don't remember that.

The libs fiscal record is pretty good on the outside. On the inside not so much.

The solved their budget woes by offloading on the provinces. Instead of dealing with the fact that they spent way too much on way too many things, they cut health and social transfers. Good strategy really. Provinces don't vote, and provincial leaders got to take the heat for the fact that Ottawa ran and hid.

They grew the economy by sacrificing productivity growth. Sure our GDP numbers look pretty good. Adjusted for the fact that our dollar is 20% lower than it used to be not so much. Our standard of living has been falling relative to other countries for several years and continues to fall. Thats all that matters.

I do not believe that for a second. Canada's standard of living has IMPROVED relative to most countries in pretty much every study I've ever seen. You would have to go a long way to prove otherwise to me.

As for offloading, if the provinces were all doing so horribly bad because of it, it would still show up in the nations economic growth. The fact that Canada's economy has grown while other G-7 countries fell back, I don't believe it is as bad as you say.

As for the lower dollar, who cares really? Inflation in Canada has been miniscule and that plays a role in it as well. A low dollar isn't necessarily a bad thing, and it is probably a good thing to most big businesses and corporations. Conservatives should be happy about that. Afterall, the initial lowering of the dollar was done by a conservative Prime Minister.

Still, the kicker remains adscam.

The liberals and their government stole. Martin and his government knew about it long before the Gomery inquiry brought the facts out, and the Liberals did everything in their power to stop those facts from coming out.

That's not the act of a few bad apples.

I'll still wait for the results of the inquiry before I make a judgement on that one. Even if it is as bad as you think it is, it doesn't mean there is a better option in this country. Sad maybe, but true.

[CaptainCrunch]

do not believe that for a second. Canada's standard of living has IMPROVED relative to most countries in pretty much every study I've ever seen. You would have to go a long way to prove otherwise to me.

Actually I remember reading that relative to other G-8 countries Canadian take home income had actually decreased in the last 5 years, while most of them had increased. So I'm not sure that I believe that the standard of living in Canada has increased by any stretch of the imagination. And the problems of child poverty and a growing lower class dosen't convince me that things have changed for the better.

But I'm too lazy this morning to go fact finding.

[Resolute 14]

Originally posted by FlamesAddiction+May 21 2005, 12:05 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (FlamesAddiction @ May 21 2005, 12:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Snakeeye@May 21 2005, 06:56 PM
However, I would argue that Klein's Tories have generally been good for Alberta, where the Federal Liberals have done more harm than anything else.

How so? Quality of living, wealth, national unity and identity, etc... All are higher now than they were before the Liberals took over. Our economy grew more than any other G-7 country since Chretiens 2nd term. Pretty much every other G-7 country stalled out or fell back.

The Liberals must have done some things right. [/b][/quote]
Indeed, and the government previous to Chretien was saddled with the destructive nature of the Trudeau era, the aftermath of the NEP and a major recession.

However, I was refering spefically to the Liberals being destructive towards Alberta.

[Resolute 14]

Originally posted by fokakya+May 21 2005, 12:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (fokakya @ May 21 2005, 12:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Snakeeye@May 21 2005, 11:56 AM
However, dont confuse support for the federal Conservatives as being autmatically supportive of the provincial Conservatives. I am not at all enamoured with Kleins Tories, and unless the next leader can convince me otherwise, my vote in the next election will be going to the Alliance.

However, I would argue that Klein's Tories have generally been good for Alberta, where the Federal Liberals have done more harm than anything else.

You see, the thing is, provincially, the party in power right now is the Progressive Conservatives which really isn't the same as the federal CPC at all. The Alberta Alliance party is probably closer in doctrine to the CPC so, you kind of just ate your own shoe leather there. I'd say you are automatically supportive of provincial *conservatives*, just not Progressive Conservatives. [/b][/quote]
What's your point sparky? Claeren's comments were trying to compare the transgressions of the Federal Liberals to those of the Provincial Tories. I responded by stating I am not very high on either.

A blind, deaf, dumb monkey could figure out that I am very conservative minded. I'm not certian what point you were trying to make in reminding me of my personal political convictions.

[Claeren]

Well, i was more concerned with ones response as a voter towards actions of those parties and expectations of the actions of others towards those parties, as opposed to a direct comparison (apples and oranges), but whatever... lol....


Claeren.

[Resolute 14]

Yes, I gathered. I oversimplified for fokakya's benifit.

[duncan]

Originally posted by CaptainCrunch@May 21 2005, 05:18 PM
If Harper came out tommorrow and said "I don't understand how Ontario thinks, they are different from us, and don't makes sense" Would he get the free ride that you are giving Chretien?

Sorry but based on the fact that the Liberal's don't even bother to send thier leaders out here during elections, or do it for one day speaks volumes for me.

They don't need to understand us, or have us involved because the election is over by the time it hits the manitoba border.

Would that be about equal to Harper's I could care less if Quebec separates speech about 2 years ago? Harper's whole train of thought was that they were different, spoke a different language, wanted to leave because they didn't get there way. Perhaps Harper's outlook toward Quebec was the reason the Tories took zero seats in Quebec. 75 seats in the province, and not a sniff. 107 seats east of Ontario, and the Conservatives get 7.


One thing that you have to remember, is the Conservative Party has had a fair amount of contraversy in Ontario in the past 15 years. Federally, Ontario took the biggest hit under NAFTA, with thousands of Industrial jobs disappearing into the United States, and then eventually Mexico. While Cretian failed to live up to his promise to eliminate the GST, it was Mulroney who instituted it. While the Liberals wasted Billions on Gun Registry, it was Kim Campbell (1993) that started the Gun Control Legistlation. While Ontario's Nuclear plants (Bruce Nuclear and Darlington) were downsized, Mulroney directed millions to his hometown and their new power plant.

Provincially, Mike Harris, as Tory Premier, reduced the income of welfare recipients and single mothers, while lining the pockets of his cronies in the North Bay riding (Northern Development Group). Harris spent 8 years making his friends rich, with contracts for running a private jail, the 407 highway, P2P facilities, and tax breaks for Professional Sports teams (which he denied for weeks), while the middle and lower classes struggled. Harris depleted Public Services, contracting out lab work, meat inspection, produce inspection, etc, with the promise of better service for les money. He ignored warnings and examples from other countries, because he was smarter than the people that had done it before. We now have had to buy out the more expensive contracts of the jail and inspectors.
During the 8 years of hell, we had Walkerton, where private labs and a lack of supervision, once given by Public Servants, led to 7 deaths, and 2000 other cases of E-coli poisoning. Ontario suffered through SARS, where again the lack of public labs and a decimated healthcare system aided in 33 deaths, and a widespread epidemic (costing the city and province hundreds of millions in Tourism). We then faced another water issue in Southwestern Ontario, when a factory accidently leaked toxic chemicals into a nearby river, and the private lab admitted they hadn't tested for those chemicals, because 'we have a budget, and can only test for so much.' In 2002, the Ontario Tory Government was warned that their cutting of 90% of the meat inspectors was putting the province in danger, and a specific company was cited. In 2003, that company, in Aylmer, Ontario, was found to be processing tainted meat.
On September 6, 1995, Native Protester Dudley George was killed at Ipperwash. Premier Harris adamantly denied any knowledge of the incidents that led up to the clash between the OPP and the Natives. During the ongoing inquiry into the incident, taped conversations have been introduced that contradict Harris' claim. The Native Affairs Minister contacted the OPP, and informed them that he had spoken with Harris, and they (the Tories) were too excited about getting things done, calling them "barrel-suckers".

Yes, some Liberals siphoned money to their buddies, to keep power and get their way, it isn't the first time it has happened. Expectations now, are that the East will vote Conservative to teach the Liberals a lesson, but the Conservatives aren't trusted either. The Conservatives hurt their own cause last time, with in-fighting, and a questionable leader, and were a fairly new entity after partnering up with the Reform. The West will vote Conservative because they feel that they will do more for them, and represent them better. I will vote for Steckle, my current MP, because he is willing to vote against party lines,,, and represent his riding.

[Resolute 14]

The irony of the NAFTA thing is that Chretien campaigned in 1993 on cancelling NAFTA, and then within two weeks of getting elected, he instead signed the deal into law. Not that anyone out east will factor that into their mental history books.

[Dynamic]

The liberals are gonna win again people, you have lots of time to think of some more reasons to hate them.

[Maritime Q-Scout]

Originally posted by Dynamic@May 22 2005, 08:12 PM
The liberals are gonna win again people, you have lots of time to think of some more reasons to hate them.

not having any preferance in political party, I'll tell you a secret... as long as Harper's the leader the CPC will not win.

The Tories need a new leader, they need a leader period, not someone holding the role.

Harper hasn't proven to have much leadership ability IMO, the fact that he and his party keep having to backtrack when they have a "slip of the tounge" ie: Harper and Atlantic Canadians, the Winnipeg MP and Japanese. They need a lesson in rhetoric.

As well I can think of three people holding seats in parliament that Harper lost. I've never met the guy, I'm sure he's a nice person, but he's not leadership material let alone Prime Minister material.

Unless they toss Harper as leader and get someone new, an election win they will not.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally posted by Maritime Q-Scout+May 22 2005, 11:31 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Maritime Q-Scout @ May 22 2005, 11:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Dynamic@May 22 2005, 08:12 PM
The liberals are gonna win again people, you have lots of time to think of some more reasons to hate them.

not having any preferance in political party, I'll tell you a secret... as long as Harper's the leader the CPC will not win.

The Tories need a new leader, they need a leader period, not someone holding the role.

Harper hasn't proven to have much leadership ability IMO, the fact that he and his party keep having to backtrack when they have a "slip of the tounge" ie: Harper and Atlantic Canadians, the Winnipeg MP and Japanese. They need a lesson in rhetoric.

As well I can think of three people holding seats in parliament that Harper lost. I've never met the guy, I'm sure he's a nice person, but he's not leadership material let alone Prime Minister material.

Unless they toss Harper as leader and get someone new, an election win they will not. [/b][/quote]
Its funny that the Conservatives were the ones who created the idea of the gas rebate, and pushed it through parliment, the Liberals state that if an election is called and the CPC's win that it will be squashed, and the media runs with it.

The Conservatives were the ones that created the idea of the Atlantic accords and if we remember even after the Liberals stole it and pushed it through they tried not to live up to thier agreement with Atlantic Canada. Then after being forced to after the Canadian flags came down, they said that if an election came around the Conservatives would kill it, and no matter how much Harper and the Conservatives denied it and said all programs will be honoured. The media came down firmly on the side of the Liberals.

Maybe your right, maybe the Conservatives need a leader that is more strong spoken, and is willing to not only buy off the media including the CBC, but play the same kind of dirty campaigning and lying as the Liberals.

[moon]

Originally posted by Maritime Q-Scout+May 22 2005, 04:31 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Maritime Q-Scout @ May 22 2005, 04:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Dynamic@May 22 2005, 08:12 PM
The liberals are gonna win again people, you have lots of time to think of some more reasons to hate them.

not having any preferance in political party, I'll tell you a secret... as long as Harper's the leader the CPC will not win.

The Tories need a new leader, they need a leader period, not someone holding the role.

Harper hasn't proven to have much leadership ability IMO, the fact that he and his party keep having to backtrack when they have a "slip of the tounge" ie: Harper and Atlantic Canadians, the Winnipeg MP and Japanese. They need a lesson in rhetoric.

As well I can think of three people holding seats in parliament that Harper lost. I've never met the guy, I'm sure he's a nice person, but he's not leadership material let alone Prime Minister material.

Unless they toss Harper as leader and get someone new, an election win they will not. [/b][/quote]
If the CPC goes to a more center leaning leader they will not win either. What will hapen is the people in the west will begin to want more right wing policies that the new leader will have to ignore in order to appease the voters in Ontario and the Maritimes.

changing Harper would only create a situation which lead to the creation of the Reform party in the late eighties/early nineties.

[Resolute 14]

I think the people of the west would give the CPC a chance if it moves more to the centre, however, you are right. If an eastern leader (ie: McKay) abandons the west in favour of the east, we are right back at square one. Perhaps damaged irreparably.

Q-scout - you are aware that Harper's "culture of defeat" comments were referring to the actions of the federal government, not the people of Atlantic Canada, right? He was talking about how the Liberals were clawing back oil and gas revenue via the transfer system, ensuring that every extra dollar the region earns goes straight to the federal government. The area gets no further ahead, thus the "culture of defeat" that is created.