The End of the American Gas Guzzler?

[Shazam]

Gee, I put a smiley.

[3 Justin 3]

Originally Posted by Red Ice Player

The Volt and the Leaf have been available for less than a year, so of course nobody drives them yet. Also, the Volt is a plug in hybrid, not a pure electric. I believe that hydrogen has a future in passenger cars, but will require a much greater build up of infrastructure to make them practical. Electrics will have much more market penetration in the meantime, since we already have an electrical grid.

Yes, and a Clarity fills up in about 2 minutes. An electric takes more than an hour.

Until they can charge 200 batteries in <3 minutes, electric vehicles will always be useless.

[bossy22]

A buddy of mine has a tesla roadster. 0-60 mph in 3.7 seconds. Gets 245 miles per charge. He uses it to commute with and his weekend fun rides. He just comes home and plugs it in to top it off every night. He has another car for long road trips. He does just fine with an electric.

[Red Ice Player]

Originally Posted by 3 Justin 3

Yes, and a Clarity fills up in about 2 minutes. An electric takes more than an hour.

Until they can charge 200 batteries in <3 minutes, electric vehicles will always be useless.

Ok pal. Where's the hydrogen station? Obviously you have a pretty strong opinion about which way technology should go. I'm talking about what is realistic now.

[Traditional_Ale]

Originally Posted by Red Ice Player

Ok pal. Where's the hydrogen station? Obviously you have a pretty strong opinion about which way technology should go. I'm talking about what is realistic now.

If the girl in the video I posted can engineer a virus that builds a lithium battery, and the asian guy can build a battery that discharges 10,000,000 times faster than lithium ion then I would argue that full electric is going to be the way to go. There is a very impressive 1/4-mile drag race with an electric motorcycle that proves both efficiency and power.

[3 Justin 3]

Originally Posted by Red Ice Player

Ok pal. Where's the hydrogen station? Obviously you have a pretty strong opinion about which way technology should go. I'm talking about what is realistic now.

If I'm not mistaken I was talking about the future, which the Clarity is. 15 years seems to be the future to be and not now. I'm not saying in 15 years that hydrogen infrastructure will be well established, but the electric car in which you have to constantly re-charge is not the future. Also, the Clarity is technically an electric car, it just doesn't need 70 years to re-charge its battery.

[speede5]

Originally Posted by jonesy

When I hear 'American gas guzzler' i think of big 1960's cars, when there were few imports.
I would say now that Armada's and Tundra's and Sequoias are just as much gas guzzlers as NA cars. Of the cars sold in NA, the 'american' ones probably have the same economy as the rest of them on average.

However all those vehicles were made specificaly for the NA market, and would not even exist otherwise.

Generally, the entire world uses vehicles to do a job, and they care about nothing more than the vehicles ability to do the job. In NA, it is all about comfort, style, power, all components which use more energy to produce and make vehicles less efficient. This metality is trickling into other cultures but the US love affair with the automobile alone is to blame for the mass of inefficient vehicles on the road.

[Red Ice Player]

Originally Posted by 3 Justin 3

If I'm not mistaken I was talking about the future, which the Clarity is. 15 years seems to be the future to be and not now. I'm not saying in 15 years that hydrogen infrastructure will be well established, but the electric car in which you have to constantly re-charge is not the future. Also, the Clarity is technically an electric car, it just doesn't need 70 years to re-charge its battery.

I'm not arguing the merits of fuel calls versus batteries. For the purposes of this thread, I'm saying that battery powered electric cars will, in 2025, be a more significant factor in determining the average fuel economy of the fleet offerings of the Big Three automakers. Hybrids are the transitional technology today, full electrics are next, hydrogen fuel cells will come next, depending largely on the availability of economical widespread hydrogen production technology. I just don't see this happening quick enough to be much of a factor in 2025.

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by speede5

However all those vehicles were made specificaly for the NA market, and would not even exist otherwise.

Generally, the entire world uses vehicles to do a job, and they care about nothing more than the vehicles ability to do the job. In NA, it is all about comfort, style, power, all components which use more energy to produce and make vehicles less efficient. This metality is trickling into other cultures but the US love affair with the automobile alone is to blame for the mass of inefficient vehicles on the road.

Good grief. All first world countries care about comfort.

In regards to hydrogen, it's currently net-negative power consumption to create. What advances do people see that will change that?

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by Shazam

In regards to hydrogen, it's currently net-negative power consumption to create. What advances do people see that will change that?

Even if that remains the same; you are missing the point of hydrogen. I can use solar, wind, or hydro-electric power to create the hydrogen. Then the hydrogen can be used in a similar way to how we use gasoline now.

And if you want to talk about infrastructure- look at the propane industry. Even with propane cars being few and far between today- I could still drive one cross country if I wanted to.

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by ken0042

Even if that remains the same; you are missing the point of hydrogen. I can use solar, wind, or hydro-electric power to create the hydrogen. Then the hydrogen can be used in a similar way to how we use gasoline now.

And if you want to talk about infrastructure- look at the propane industry. Even with propane cars being few and far between today- I could still drive one cross country if I wanted to.

If you put more energy to make the hydrogen than what ends up as hydrogen, then the hydrogen will be very, very expensive.

Solar and wind are both very inefficient at the moment. I can't see how anyone could make money using those to create hydrogen.

Hydro is nice but not everyone has access to it.

[You Need a Thneed]

when battery technology increases, there will be no need for something like Hydrogen storage. The future is batteries and electric motors.

Battery swapping might come into play in the meantime, before you can charge a 500 km battery in a couple of minutes.

As the the link in the OP, I don't see any reason why car fleets couldn't average 40+ MPG today. 55 MPG in 15 years should be a bare minimum standard. It should be 75-80 MPG.

Personally, I'm not going to be in the car market for a couple of years, but I'm really hoping I never have to buy an gas burning car again. I'd love to be able to buy only electrics from now on.

Fun fact, the elctric car is older than the gasoline powered car. Imagine if all of the R&D money that has gone into gas powered cars in the last 100 years had gone into electric cars?

Battery swapping totally eliminates the fear of the large cost of buying a new battery all at once.

[Shazam]

Yeah, you're going to need 3000amp service and a wire the thickness of your arm if you want to push that many electrons in a couple of minutes.

[zamler]

Originally Posted by ken0042

Even if that remains the same; you are missing the point of hydrogen. I can use solar, wind, or hydro-electric power to create the hydrogen. Then the hydrogen can be used in a similar way to how we use gasoline now.

You can use all of the above to generate electricity. Hydrogen has incredible challenges if it ever expects to be the energy source of choice for cars. The tanks themselves are very expensive, it is very difficult to make them leak proof and safe. And there is no known process of creating hydrogen without losing energy, currently almost all hydrogen is produced from natural gas.

Also realize that replacing gasoline with hydrogen still does not get around the highly inefficient nature of the internal combustion engine. Also hydrogen powered engines run poorly in cold climates. Hydrogen is the utopian fuel because it is 100% clean burning, which is great if we had a free source of the stuff. So unless we start mining Jupiter, battery powered cars are going to be the way of the future.

[ken0042]

Sorry- I was under the impression that hydrogen is produced by using water and electricity. I guess the way we made it in high school chemistry class isn't the standard.

[Red Ice Player]

Originally Posted by ken0042

Sorry- I was under the impression that hydrogen is produced by using water and electricity. I guess the way we made it in high school chemistry class isn't the standard.

Electrolysis requires too much grid electricity to justify using it to make hydrogen. In theory you could produce hydrogen from the electricity made from your own solar panels or windmill. The thing is, a hydrogen fuel cell ends up being just another type of battery, and an incredibly inefficient one at that considering the electricity you used to charge it. Conventional battery technology keeps getting better and more efficient, and seems to be winning the race with hydrogen. Therefore the hydrogen economy is going to be hard to realize.

[Kybosh]

In addition to being produced from steam reforming natural gas, hydrogen must be pressurized to be used in fuel cells (hydrogen at ambient pressures is not useful aside from making a pop when you put a flame to it). One can produce hydrogen gas from standard electrolysis, but it takes a lot of energy to pressurize it into a useful medium. Hydrogen that is produced from natural gas, is already produced at high pressures.

Currently, the hydrogen economy is a myth. I'm not saying it won't ever be viable, but there are a lot of misconceptions out there about it.

Additionally, the use of biofuels as a major fuel source is a myth. The only reason that area is around right now is because it's heavily subsidized by moron politicians who fired their scientific advisers.

[Rathji]

I think the average commuter, travelling 20-40k a day would love an electric car. The average commuter, who occasionally travels would like a hybrid vehicle that could handle both demands.

As much as I don't care about the environment (in terms of 'saving it') I think that with my next vehicle I will be strongly considering an electric or hybrid.