Fleury ashamed to be Canadian...

[Fozzie_DeBear]

Originally posted by Lanny_MacDonald+Apr 21 2005, 04:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Lanny_MacDonald @ Apr 21 2005, 04:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Hakan@Apr 21 2005, 04:23 PM
Newsflash: they are the victim, and there's only so much you can do from this position.

Bullshinguard. You're a victim only if you want to play a victim. If you're willing to stand up for yourself and take some RESPONSIBILITY then you are not a victim. The majority of natives take a passive role in their own lives and this is why they are in the position they are in. If they would take an active role and assume some responsibility they would be much better off and likely a lot more successful. This garbage of pointing fingers and saying how hard doe by we are is a freakin' joke. Find some backbone. The native culture is so rich in the warrior tradition yet they don't display the character to fight for what is they want and what they see as right. The natives have CHOSEN to play the role they presently do. They can CHOSE to change that any time they wish. [/b][/quote]
With all due respect Lanny, that is a gross oversimplification IMO.

I agree with you that the 'victim' ultimately has to want to change their situation for things to improve. However, sometimes the deck is stacked against you and you can't ignore it.

To suggest that a group of society has the ability to CHOOSE their destiny instantly ignores the path that brought them to their current situation. They (first-nations) ARE hard-done by for many different reasons, no joke.

IMO collectively we as Canadian society do have some soul-searching and realize that our history has a shameful black mark which is still festering today.

I'd like to know what you think OUR role as the 'second-nation' society is TODAY with respect to the situation of the 'first-nations' people.


PS

There is a Canadian book called 'Long Shadows' by Erna Paris Long Shadows which looks at how different societies have dealt with 'genocide/slavery/systemic racism/apartheit' and I would suggest it to anyone who is interested in this topic.

How did the Germans deal with their WWII history? Facing it head-on
How did the Japanese deal with WWII history? Ignoring it (look at the current situation today)?
How has the USA dealt with its slavery past? Stay tuned (did you know there is NO national monument to slaves in the US)?
________
How To Roll A Joint

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by Calgary Flames+Apr 21 2005, 12:19 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Calgary Flames @ Apr 21 2005, 12:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

That depends. Do you give money to white people on the street? If so, do you think it's going to go towards nicer clothes for their children?

A small ammount of change i'd give to an elderly homeless white man is a little different that a native who gets thousands of dollars from the government when they turn 18 and have the option of a free education wouldn't you say? [/b][/quote]
I see.

It must take a long time to ask all those questions before you give that white guy money. Since you know all about the native guy because of the color of his skin but white people aren't so easy to read, you must have to get a little background info on that guy, right?

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally posted by Fozzie_DeBear@Apr 21 2005, 06:22 PM

With all due respect Lanny, that is a gross oversimplification IMO.

I agree with you that the 'victim' ultimately has to want to change their situation for things to improve. However, sometimes the deck is stacked against you and you can't ignore it.

To suggest that a group of society has the ability to CHOOSE their destiny instantly ignores the path that brought them to their current situation. They (first-nations) ARE hard-done by for many different reasons, no joke.

IMO collectively we as Canadian society do have some soul-searching and realize that our history has a shameful black mark which is still festering today.

I'd like to know what you think OUR role as the 'second-nation' society is TODAY with respect to the situation of the 'first-nations' people.


PS

There is a Canadian book called 'Long Shadows' by Erna Paris Long Shadows which looks at how different societies have dealt with 'genocide/slavery/systemic racism/apartheit' and I would suggest it to anyone who is interested in this topic.

How did the Germans deal with their WWII history? Facing it head-on
How did the Japanese deal with WWII history? Ignoring it (look at the current situation today)?
How has the USA dealt with its slavery past? Stay tuned (did you know there is NO national monument to slaves in the US)?

Of course that is a gross oversimplification. But its a gross oversimplification that is pretty well right on the nose if you are willing to get off the PC bandwagon and call a spade a spade. The first nations are stereotyped in a given way that many find unfair, but they promote that stereotype with their own behaviors. Drive through any reserve and see how much money is p*ssed away.

Putting cultural relativism aside, they are NOT hard-done by, they are stupid. They are given so much from the government that it is hard to fathom for most of us. Yet they CHOOSE to blow it on nothing. They CHOOSE not to take that money and invest it in their own people. They CHOOSE to continually play the victim and sink lower in the depths of the abyss that "the white man" has created for them. I'll tell you what, you give me the land, the money and freedom from the laws that affect the rest of the country and I will make my people self sufficient in a matter of years, not decades. My god, the advantages that these people have and the way they p*ss it away is pathetic.

Conversely, feel free to drive through any one of hundreds of reserves in America and see how the "red man" is getting even with the "white man". They have taken their money and turned it into money making ventures, that benefits their whole society and culture. The Choctaw in Mississippi have erected one of the most impressive displays you can imagine. Two casinos with two world class golf courses and a land development scheme (with shopping, hospital, etc.) that will bring in people to vacation from all over the world. They run everything with their own people (where possible) and still proudly maintain and prote their culture. They will have revenue generation for as long as they CHOOSE to. They have played on the "white man's" weaknesses and built up their reserve to it being a place I would retire if opportunity arises. They have CHOSEN success. They made the COMMITMENT and WORKED HARD to get what they have.

I just don't buy this garbage about them being down and not having the resources to get out of the hole they are in. They have land, money and freedoms that no one else does, and they still do nothing with it. To me its all about choices and many of the first nations in Canada choose the wrong route to travel.

[Calgary Flames]

Originally posted by RougeUnderoos+Apr 21 2005, 12:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RougeUnderoos @ Apr 21 2005, 12:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

A small ammount of change i'd give to an elderly homeless white man is a little different that a native who gets thousands of dollars from the government when they turn 18 and have the option of a free education wouldn't you say?

I see.

It must take a long time to ask all those questions before you give that white guy money. Since you know all about the native guy because of the color of his skin but white people aren't so easy to read, you must have to get a little background info on that guy, right? [/b][/quote]
It's not the colour of their skin, it's their culture and the government handouts they recieve to p*ss away that gives me a sour feeling towards natives and how they feel sorry for themselves. (Not every native but a large number of them)

There are trashy people of all races, I just dislike trashy people but if there is any form of homeless person I give money to it's to someone who is elderly, who is actually a nice person, I do take time to talk to them and I do think I can read people well and I will not give a cent to some drunk downtown Zombie of any race...

[RougeUnderoos]

Well I'm about done with this thread.

I think Fleury's point has been chiseled in stone.

[Calgary Flames]

Also I think Lanny is spot on with his post above... It's not racism it's fact. Natives in Canada don't know how good they've got it and they just waste what's given to them. Go to a reserve in Arizona and compare it to say the Tsuu Tina in Calgary. It's mindblowing how wasteful Canadian natives are in comparison..

[JiriHrdina]

Originally posted by Calgary Flames+Apr 21 2005, 01:00 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Calgary Flames @ Apr 21 2005, 01:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

I see.

It must take a long time to ask all those questions before you give that white guy money. Since you know all about the native guy because of the color of his skin but white people aren't so easy to read, you must have to get a little background info on that guy, right?

It's not the colour of their skin, it's their culture and the government handouts they recieve to p*ss away that gives me a sour feeling towards natives and how they feel sorry for themselves. (Not every native but a large number of them)

There are trashy people of all races, I just dislike trashy people but if there is any form of homeless person I give money to it's to someone who is elderly, who is actually a nice person, I do take time to talk to them and I do think I can read people well and I will not give a cent to some drunk downtown Zombie of any race... [/b][/quote]
To answer your question. If you are "reading people" based on the color of the skin then yes - you are essentialy racist towards those people.

If you have made a conscience decision to NOT give money to aboriginal people specifically - then again - yes you are essentially racist.

It frustrates me to read how people think that Aboriginal people "p*ss away" all this money. The fact is that the Aboriginal population is the fastest growing in Canada and money allocated to them has not matched this increase in population - essentially they have been getting less money per person for many many years. That's not something you ever hear about though.

The money that is given to Aboriginal people is no different than any other social assistance in that some people will abuse it and use it for the wrong purposes while others will use it for the right things.

And why does it frustrate you to see Aboriginal people load stuff they bought into a new truck? That would suggest they are doing well for themselves which ultimately is what we want no?

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by Calgary Flames@Apr 21 2005, 01:02 PM
Also I think Lanny is spot on with his post above... It's not racism it's fact. Natives in Canada don't know how good they've got it and they just waste what's given to them. Go to a reserve in Arizona and compare it to say the Tsuu Tina in Calgary. It's mindblowing how wasteful Canadian natives are in comparison..

I'm going to go out on a real limb here and guess that you don't have the slightest effing clue about native culture or anything else. Everything you know about the situation, which is nothing, you might have learned from conversations with your similarly-educated cronies and a drive-by of an Indian Reservation in Arizona.

It's racism. "They are lazy", "they are stupid", "I wouldn't give an Indian money because I don't like their culture".

What do you think that is? What do you think those words mean if they aren't racist?

"It's fact"? You don't know anything about it.

[moon]

What a load of crap from Fleury. Not the aspect that there is racism but how he goes about stating it.

Yes Natives face racism, so do whites, blacks, orientals and any other minority.

I think the Natives have it pretty good here. (and this is speaking from experience working directly with them and the communities.) they are given many opportunities that other Canadians are not given and much too often to not take advantage of them. there is only so much that the Government can do to try and help to equalize the inequalities they have faced in their past before we have to wonder whether or not it is worth it.

anyways whining like this from guys like Fleury does no good in advancing the cause of equality at all. It just perpetuates the view that miorities are whiners amongst certain parts of society and reaffirms the myths that other parts believe in, while not really affecting the most of society who either don't care or know better than to turn to an idiot like Theo for their social views.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally posted by RougeUnderoos@Apr 21 2005, 07:14 PM
I'm going to go out on a real limb here and guess that you don't have the slightest effing clue about native culture or anything else. Everything you know about the situation, which is nothing, you might have learned from conversations with your similarly-educated cronies and a drive-by of an Indian Reservation in Arizona.

It's racism. "They are lazy", "they are stupid", "I wouldn't give an Indian money because I don't like their culture".

What do you think that is? What do you think those words mean if they aren't racist?

"It's fact"? You don't know anything about it.

Racism. Well, there it is. I was waiting for that to come out. Someone played the trump card. Way to go, I hope you're proud.

Well if we're all so wrong about what the first nations have done, educate us. Feel free to pull out all the success stories of the first nations peoples in Canada and point to all the great things they have done. Where are the great achievements? The great self sustaining infrastructure that they have erected? Any great works of literature? Any great social movements? Or is this too ethnocentric and measuring success against the white man's terms? Then how about pointing out how the first nations have managed their lands so well? How about pointing out how they have embraced their own ways and maintained their culture?

Let's get back to the ethnocentric study for a minute. Care to comment on the high incidents of alcoholism and drug abouse on reserves all across Canada? How about the illiteracy rate? How about mortality rates on reserves? How about the incredible encarcerated population numbers? How about the poverty level (fataing hell, they are GIVEN houses and money every month and there is still a poverty issue!)? Finally, how about the unemployment rate for first nations peoples?

As I have pointed out, I have seen many success stories when it comes to the Native Americans, and they get nothing down here, than I saw in Canada. Why is it? Because Canada fosters an environment that rewards laziness and non-performance for the First Nations. You may argue that it is not all the indians (gasp, I used the "I" word) fault, but its time they started taking responsibility for their lack of action and development of their own society. This blame the white man stuff just doesn't sell anymore IMO.

And please don't try that, "you don't know anything about native culture" shinguard. What most natives know of their own culture can be written down on a single page of paper. That is a well documented problem within the reserves all over North America, the youth not learning the ways of their people and the loss of the Native cultures. That's the pot calling the kettle black IMO and is nothing but a smoke screen to the fact that you have nothing to support your argument.

[FlamesAddiction]

People say that they "waste thousands of dollars just thrown at them", but 1000's of dollar is not much when you have nothing to invest in.

Part of the problem is just the lack of hope in many native communities. I'm not sure what the solution is, but I do know it is not something that "thousands" of dollars just thrown at them will fix.

Our governments need to stop just throwing money, but instead use the money to make real difference. They need to create an infrastructure on reserves that helps keep successful natives in their communities, and help integrate native communities into mainstream Canada. In the end, it will likely cost more, but it would be more effective. Right now, most aboriginals have little opportunity in their communities, but don't feel comfortable leaving.

At the same time, successful aboriginals need to make the effort to improve their communities and stay there. Show the young people that there is a point to education and healthy lifestyles (ie. avoiding substance abuse). Right now, I think that the lack of role models in native communities is a big problem that just contributes to the cycle of poverty and substance abuse.

[peter12]

I would just like to point out that while this whole thread has had some extremely good points made... this is basically little attention whore Fleury surfacing again to get some much needed media coverage.

Instead of bitching off to the media about how ashamed he is and how he wants to give his gold medal back... why doesn't he lend his time to helping the aboriginals.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally posted by fotze@Apr 21 2005, 08:05 PM
Well Lanny I agree Rouge dropped the racism card too early your first 2 main paragraphs were very weak. The first one equates greatness to measures that many would not agree with. The second describes what 'is' with absolutely no causation to back it up. The third main paragraphs actually you are arguing a reasonable point.

I disagree. The first two paragraphs were a direct challenge to show where we've been wrong. I even gave him the criteria which to base his rebutal on. If you are going to drop the race card and then tell people they don't know what they are talking about then ylou better be prepared to back that up and answer some damn hard questions. If I call you a pedophile I better be able to back that up with more than my opinion. You don't level a serious charge like that and have NOTHING to back it up. That's just wrong.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by Lanny_MacDonald+Apr 21 2005, 01:53 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Lanny_MacDonald @ Apr 21 2005, 01:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-RougeUnderoos@Apr 21 2005, 07:14 PM
I'm going to go out on a real limb here and guess that you don't have the slightest effing clue about native culture or anything else. Everything you know about the situation, which is nothing, you might have learned from conversations with your similarly-educated cronies and a drive-by of an Indian Reservation in Arizona.

It's racism. "They are lazy", "they are stupid", "I wouldn't give an Indian money because I don't like their culture".

What do you think that is? What do you think those words mean if they aren't racist?

"It's fact"? You don't know anything about it.

Racism. Well, there it is. I was waiting for that to come out. Someone played the trump card. Way to go, I hope you're proud.

Well if we're all so wrong about what the first nations have done, educate us. Feel free to pull out all the success stories of the first nations peoples in Canada and point to all the great things they have done. Where are the great achievements? The great self sustaining infrastructure that they have erected? Any great works of literature? Any great social movements? Or is this too ethnocentric and measuring success against the white man's terms? Then how about pointing out how the first nations have managed their lands so well? How about pointing out how they have embraced their own ways and maintained their culture?

Let's get back to the ethnocentric study for a minute. Care to comment on the high incidents of alcoholism and drug abouse on reserves all across Canada? How about the illiteracy rate? How about mortality rates on reserves? How about the incredible encarcerated population numbers? How about the poverty level (fataing hell, they are GIVEN houses and money every month and there is still a poverty issue!)? Finally, how about the unemployment rate for first nations peoples?

As I have pointed out, I have seen many success stories when it comes to the Native Americans, and they get nothing down here, than I saw in Canada. Why is it? Because Canada fosters an environment that rewards laziness and non-performance for the First Nations. You may argue that it is not all the indians (gasp, I used the "I" word) fault, but its time they started taking responsibility for their lack of action and development of their own society. This blame the white man stuff just doesn't sell anymore IMO.

And please don't try that, "you don't know anything about native culture" shinguard. What most natives know of their own culture can be written down on a single page of paper. That is a well documented problem within the reserves all over North America, the youth not learning the ways of their people and the loss of the Native cultures. That's the pot calling the kettle black IMO and is nothing but a smoke screen to the fact that you have nothing to support your argument. [/b][/quote]
When someone says "Indians are stupid", which you did, it's racism. What is the difference between saying...

Black people are lazy.
White people are evil.
Jewish are cheap.

and "Indians are stupid"? Nothing. It's all the same thing. Tough break.

And I didn't play the trump card. In case you missed it the whole goddamn thread was dedicated to racism directed towards Indians in Canada. Obviously there is.

You've proven it.

[Vulcan]

Some people in this thread keep alluding to money that the Natives get from the government. Most of the money natives get in Alberta comes from oil rights and I don't see any problem with this. How they spend it is mostly none of my business. Most natives across Canada don't get this, but sometimes they and their reserve may get some money from land claims. The university education money is not passed out to everybody but seems to act like a scholarship fund and is a good investment for the government. Many reserves are now investing their money in business and this is a good thing. Rome wasn't built in a day. Three cheers for Theo and other natives and Metis for speaking out, or would some of you prefer that he silently accepted the predjudice he saw. I'm not native, but I've lived with them, just my experience. Go Horse Lake Thunder.

[Hakan]

That's a really good point. People from Calgary have a really skewed opinion on the amount of money that native people receive. Go to a reserve in Labrador or hell, even out here on Vancouver Island and there is no where near that kind of wealth being distributed. Most of it is subsistence wealth.

Also, I find some of the posts above totally deplorable. Read a fataing book on the topic before you think you know all about native people, native culture and the issues affecting them. Otherwise you look like an ignorant racist ass with no fataing clue what you're talking about.

Blech.

[Calgary Flames]

The moral of my story here is that, every race has trash... no debating it. But no other race gets the benefits that Native Canadians do, but at the same time no other race had their land aquired from them... and even though I'm coming off hard against Native Canadians I do realize that there are a ton of them that want to improve their people's image and well being.

So I guess i'm just sour because of the ammount of native homeless people in this city and how unkept their own land is. Take a drive through the reserve near Weaselhead as an example.

May aswell be a junk yard.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally posted by Hakan@Apr 21 2005, 09:06 PM
That's a really good point. People from Calgary have a really skewed opinion on the amount of money that native people receive. Go to a reserve in Labrador or hell, even out here on Vancouver Island and there is no where near that kind of wealth being distributed. Most of it is subsistence wealth.

Agree and disagree. It really goes on a reserve-by-reserve basis. If the people have a good treaty even outside of Alberta, then they get some alright money. If not, then they are screwed.

I grew up in Northwestern Ontario (near the Manitoba border). Some of the poorest reserves in the area. They still get some money from the federal government. During highschool, I remember at least 3 times that some of my teenage native buddies were given thousands of dollars to do whatever they want with. Not sure what it was for, but it sure wasn't oil.

Then there was the monthly incomes for treaties made over one hundred years ago. Of course, in the treaties, it stated that they were to get "x" number of horses, "x" bags of flour, "x" blankets... etc. Nowadays they just agree on what the monetary worth would be today and pay them.

One of my best friends was from a reserve in the area. I went out there with him one time and was pretty shocked. Most of the houses were collapsing, the yards were like jungles, but everyone had brand new snowmachines and ATVs. There was also a brand new hockey arena on the reserve that the government paid for that was shut down a year later because it was badly vandalized and was used as a sniff house.


At the same time, there are other reserves that get absolutely nothing. Unless of course they are unfortunate enough to get mercury poisoning. And in B.C., I don't even think most have treaties at all.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally posted by RougeUnderoos@Apr 21 2005, 08:59 PM

When someone says "Indians are stupid", which you did, it's racism. What is the difference between saying...

Black people are lazy.
White people are evil.
Jewish are cheap.

and "Indians are stupid"? Nothing. It's all the same thing. Tough break.

And I didn't play the trump card. In case you missed it the whole goddamn thread was dedicated to racism directed towards Indians in Canada. Obviously there is.

You've proven it.

Way to back up your argument. Too "stupid" or too "lazy" to do so?

On to racisim. I also say Americans are stupid, Liberials are stupid and George Bush is stupid, so what? Americans are stupid because they refuse to try and understand why the world has such a hate-on for them. Liberials are stupid because they couldn't beat a ######ed conservative in the last US election and have got caught with their hand in the cookie jar in Canada. George Bush is stupid, well I could go on for pages on why he is stupid. The first nations ARE stupid because they have p*ssed away BILLIONS of dollars in aid that could have been used to set up their nations for generations. That's not racist, that's a fact. You know, kind of like NHL players are stupid for allowing their leadership to p*ss away 1.3 billion dollars in salaries for no apparent reason. Or does that make me racist towards NHL players to?

That's the problem with people today. You can't say a damn thing about them with being labelled a racist or some other deviant social moniker that is mean to strike fear in the hearts of people everywhere. You don't have an argument so drop the "ist" bomb. Pretty fataing weak. I really don't care if you're red, white, black, blue, green or a nice hunter tarten, I am talking to you about a social group with a defined stereotype and social stigmas. If you can't get by a stereotype you're going to have a tough time dealing with society.

Something to remember is that it takes two people for a racist act to take place. Someone to say something, and then someone to be offended. I believed the offended is normally more guilty than the accused offender. When something is not overtly racist, saying somthing based on a long standing stereotype, and someone p*sses and moans about it I believe that is a window into that individual's soul and allows us to see their predisposition. Based on this interaction, and your willingness to personalize a general statement into something bigger than it is, I think it shows there is some deep seeded feelings of betrayal and hatred within yourself. You could have just called me an ******* and be done with it but you pulled a card that did not need to be played and threw it down immediately. Tips your hand. You yell racist you better look in the mirror. I don't think you're going to like the face that looks back at you. You yell racist, you're likely one yourself.

[Hakan]

Wow, that hole just keeps getting deeper and deeper.

Keep digging Lanny.