Stephen Harper After 5 Years

[Slava]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

I always laugh when Liberals talk about how Paul Martin was this wonderous finance minister. He dipped into the EI and gouged the provinces by cutting transfer payments by 1/3. His party also made a mockery of the military by cutting the budget and closing numerous bases. Playing a shell game doesnt make you a great finance minister. Anyone whos business is held off shore in a tax shelter is more anti-Canadian than anything Stephen Harper has done.

I think Harper has done an okay job as PM. I dont care for his social ideologies, but I believe his handling of the recession was superior to anything the other federal parties would have done.

Based on what? His statement that he would never run a deficit (which he then did)? His unwillingness to spend money to spur the economy, which he then backtracked on and spent the money on GM and projects in ridings that voted for him/his party?

Frankly had the other parties not intervened and forced him into spending some money I'm not sure that we would be further ahead right now.

I do agree that Paul Martin wasn't the second coming, but the reality is that the Liberals had the fiscal house in order which let the country come through the recession well. It also has be recalled that it was the Liberals who put a stop to bank mergers in the late 90's as well, which might well have saved the banks from themselves as the financial crisis came to bear.

[burn_this_city]

The money spent on GM saved thousands of jobs, personally I'm against government intervention, but it was a smart decision to prevent the collapse of the economy in Ontario. The money isnt lost either, the government is going to turn a profit on the investment in the next couple of years. Its funny you mention spending money on PC ridings, isnt that what the Liberals did for years? Cretien even admited it. Putting the money into infrastructure projects was prudent given the long term benefits and short term job creation. I'm not so sure stopping bank mergers would have made a difference. The tighter lending rules in Canada are what saved us from bailing out Bay street.

[mesaywee]

Harper has done an amazing job keeping this country stable during the economic recession, and he has done a much better job with improving our armed forces than the liberals ever did or would.

Only grip I have with him is seeing him attend an anti-gay marriage rally. Spouting things like "we much protect the sanctity of marriage", general bull*$*#.

I wish he would be more liberal on social aspects. I hate having parties that need to be conservative on everything or liberal on everything. We need a party that's a little bit of both.

[MarchHare]

I hate having parties that need to be conservative on everything or liberal on everything. We need a party that's a little bit of both.

The Chretien/Martin Liberals were simultaneously fiscally conservative (although perhaps not to the extent many big-C Conservative Albertans would have liked) and socially liberal. While in power from 1993-2006, they lowered both personal and corporate taxes, balanced the budget, and started paying down the national debt while also passing progressive social legislation like legalizing gay marriage.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Yanda

I think the fact that its been 5 years and there arnt that many complaints just means he has done a good job. Federal Politics have really gone on the back burner because its quietly being successful.

Absolutely.

The country is slowing starting to just cruise along at this point, and the government along with. Considering we went through a recession, and nobody has been screaming bloody murder, I'd say we're doing pretty good.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

The Chretien/Martin Liberals were simultaneously fiscally conservative (although perhaps not to the extent many big-C Conservative Albertans would have liked) and socially liberal. While in power from 1993-2006, they lowered both personal and corporate taxes, balanced the budget, and started paying down the national debt while also passing progressive social legislation like legalizing gay marriage.

And ruining the military at the same time.

Funny enough, the Conservatives are doing exactly the same thing....lowering personal and corporate taxes, balancing the budget(after the recession), but improving the military as well.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

I always laugh when Liberals talk about how Paul Martin was this wonderous finance minister. He dipped into the EI and gouged the provinces by cutting transfer payments by 1/3. His party also made a mockery of the military by cutting the budget and closing numerous bases. Playing a shell game doesnt make you a great finance minister.

It's not just Liberals.

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/mobile/...tml?id=4336650

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by Azure

And ruining the military at the same time.

How do you define "ruining"? I happened to serve in the Canadian Forces (in the Reserves) from 1998-2002, and I would hardly call it "ruined". If you mean to say that the Liberals reduced military spending...well of course they did, along with virtually every NATO country, including the United States. The Cold War was over, so armed forces everywhere were downsizing.

Funny enough, the Conservatives are doing exactly the same thing....lowering personal and corporate taxes, balancing the budget(after the recession), but improving the military as well.

Yes, the Harper government is fiscally conservative (I never said otherwise), but unlike the Chretien/Martin Liberals, they are most definitely NOT socially liberal, which was the point I was making in response to mesaywee's desire for a party that was neither 100% conservative nor 100% liberal.

[Reggie Dunlop]

Terrible. Altogether awful.

[Reggie Dunlop]

Originally Posted by fotze

Harper should be pronounced Harpay, else he's racist.

I recall a certain Montreal Canadiens defenseman pronounced as "Terry 'Arper."

[Blaster86]

I think Harper has been meh. He hasn't done anything super terrible, but that's because he's only ever hard a minority and doesn't have the power to.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Generally, I'd say that only partisans think that Harper has been a good PM, and only partisans think he's been terrible.

He deserves a lot of credit for parlaying what is largely regional support (in some regions fairly marginal) into a solid minority government that looks at this point pretty hard to topple. He deserves some boos for failing to win a majority in spite of the parade of mediocrity that has been the Liberal leadership since Martin. Seriously, if he can't beat THESE clowns, I'm not sure what there is that can be said.

He has very underrated political savvy--he is calculating and smart. His flaw is that he's autocratic, a bit egotistical and ultimately lacks any sort of long-term economic vision for this country, which means that we're basically in a holding pattern until he leaves office.

His legislative achievements are mediocre; this isn't only his fault, of course--his minority government is a bit of an obstacle. However, he has also been handed an opportunity to create a compromise agenda with the Liberals, who are in most respects his ideological fellow travelers, but has utterly failed to find any way to work with the opposition to create any kind of a successful agenda.

I guess overall I'd give him a C+. Not terrible, but not great. He's just keeping the seat warm for a person with vision at this point--whether that person comes from his own party or from across the aisle.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

How do you define "ruining"? I happened to serve in the Canadian Forces (in the Reserves) from 1998-2002, and I would hardly call it "ruined". If you mean to say that the Liberals reduced military spending...well of course they did, along with virtually every NATO country, including the United States. The Cold War was over, so armed forces everywhere were downsizing.

I'll argue that, it was ruined, and the Liberal destruction combined with Conservative inattention under BM caused the spending bump that we're seeing now that we actually deployed.

And it was beyond a downsizing of spending, it was utterly ridiculous and grossly negligent that the government was still deploying members while spending so little on at least trying to equip t the forces to actually achieve their mission either internationally or domestically.

The Liberal's under Trudeau and Chretien and to an extent Martin tried to murder something that they hated and that was the Canadian Forces.

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Yes, the Harper government is fiscally conservative (I never said otherwise), but unlike the Chretien/Martin Liberals, they are most definitely NOT socially liberal, which was the point I was making in response to mesaywee's desire for a party that was neither 100% conservative nor 100% liberal.

Being completely socially liberal is not a good thing just as being completely socially conservative is not a good thing. But I think that both sides like to label their opposing parties as such just so they can feel better about their views.

[Hemi-Cuda]

Originally Posted by mesaywee

Harper has done an amazing job keeping this country stable during the economic recession, and he has done a much better job with improving our armed forces than the liberals ever did or would.

Only grip I have with him is seeing him attend an anti-gay marriage rally. Spouting things like "we much protect the sanctity of marriage", general bull*$*#.

I wish he would be more liberal on social aspects. I hate having parties that need to be conservative on everything or liberal on everything. We need a party that's a little bit of both.

yea, one of my biggest qualms with Harper is that he completely quashed the marijuana decriminalization effort that the Liberals started. now i'm far from a pothead, the last time i smoked was about 3 or 4 years ago. but i just find it so ridiculous that a drug which is not physically addictive and impossible to OD on can be thrown in the same category as cocaine and heroin. and if you want a major boost to the economy, especially on the west coast, it doesn't get much easier than legalization

apart from that i have no major complaints though. when Obama won the election with so much charisma and star power, i was a little bitter that our leader was so dull and boring in comparison. but watching Obama fritter away his good will by trying to please everyone and not taking a hard stand on anything, the comparison doesn't look so bad anymore

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Hemi-Cuda

yea, one of my biggest qualms with Harper is that he completely quashed the marijuana decriminalization effort that the Liberals started. now i'm far from a pothead, the last time i smoked was about 3 or 4 years ago. but i just find it so ridiculous that a drug which is not physically addictive and impossible to OD on can be thrown in the same category as cocaine and heroin. and if you want a major boost to the economy, especially on the west coast, it doesn't get much easier than legalization

The article below disproves the theory that legalising will be a mjor boost to the economy. It also talks about the addictive nature of the drug.

"Don't think that all that money [$7 billion] is coming back to British Columbia," Rintoul says.

"Some of that money is going to other countries to support other organized-crime activities" involving cocaine, handguns and human smuggling.

He cites the recent bust of a crime group that was exporting 700 kilograms of B.C. bud worth $3 million per week to the U.S. -- and funnelling the profits to the gang's head office in Vietnam.

"If you legalized marijuana in Canada, you would be telling that organization, 'You now have a free reign in that activity,' because they were not selling their marijuana in Canada, they were always selling in the States. To legalize it here would not shut them down.

"The majority of marijuana grown in Canada is exported. So, to say, 'Oh, we'll tax that as well,' you can't tax it going down there, you can only tax what's in Canada.

"And a lot of people would not pay taxes because they could grow it themselves."

Rintoul also argues that a black market in marijuana would still exist if it were legal, since growers would try to avoid paying tax on it.

http://www.canada.com/theprovince/ne...1-5c265c7f8024

[Slava]

In all my main issue with the Harper government has less to do with policy (because he has really been rather moderate or at least tolerable for the most part) and more to do with attitude. There's a sort of smugness and general conceit about the government. I know that is a knock that people will have on Chretien....but a) this thread is about Harper; (b) just because the guy was doing something before you doesn't give you carte blanche to act that way and (c)things are going "OK" now, not amazing (do you get the right to act smug when you win two consecutive minorities?)

Some of the members of parliament have been downright pathetic and embarassing now matter which party you prefer. Leaving classified documents at your girlfriends house, prorogation of parliament, the long-form census debacle, failing to quash the gun registry, doing exactly what he campaigned against regarding the senate and the list goes on. All of that being said, the latest allegations are to me the absolute worst. Altering documents that have already been signed is really going way too far. I hate to have to point this out, but that is the kind of thing that a child does when then change the "B" into a "D" on their report card. I mean honestly....the ^ with NOT written above it? This is how a cabinet minister allocates millions of dollars? What a complete joke. It makes no difference what party you support either; its deceit plain and simple.

So while I actually don't find anything all that objectionable policy-wise (save for some arm-twisting to spend during the recession), its the overall disdain for proper procedure and basically the institution of parliament and government that I find distasteful.

[Dion]

As long as Ignatieff is leader of the Liberals we could see yet another Harper minority.

[transplant99]

Great. Altogether wonderful.

[Reggie Dunlop]

Prorogation of parliament was an abject dereliction of democratic duty. Inexcusable.

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

However, he has also been handed an opportunity to create a compromise agenda with the Liberals, who are in most respects his ideological fellow travelers, but has utterly failed to find any way to work with the opposition to create any kind of a successful agenda.

Create a compromise agenda with people who reject each and every thing before it is even proposed? Pretty tall order.