Great post, I honestly appreciate your words so long as you practice what you preach.
However, I found this portion of your post interesting and wanted to ask the following:
What, in the scientific sense, is right and wrong?
Also, from what criteria do you derive of your faith an understanding of what makes you a better person? Does your faith provide you with this criteria? What about secular thought?
To answer your first question, I accept that we can't prove or disprove a god. If you were to say that the Christian religion is a magical fairy-tale I don't have anything that can prove otherwise.
To answer your second question, my mother has a magnet on her fridge of a quote by Roy Levin that says "What God asks you to lift, He gives you the grace to carry". If you believe that, it's an added source of strength to handle any problems that come your way. In addition I used to be addicted to pop, I needed about a litre a day. I gave it up for lent one year. I'm not even Catholic, but having that set 40 days was a small enough target that see the end and it didn't feel like an uphill battle. It temporary, whereas if I gave it up for say New Year's I'd be back on the Coke-train a week or so later. Religion helped me kick my habit (replaced it with coffee mind you, but black coffee has far less sugar).
As for the practice what you preach philosophy. Having a United Protestant father, Catholic mother, Muslim uncle, I grew up in a family very open with religion and one that wasn't defined by it. While both my parents are fairly religious, I was taught to be open to others beliefs and ideals. Part of the reason I don't get involved into religious debates is because they aren't true debates, there isn't an open back and forth of ideas.
. . . so now I'll go back to lurking
__________________ "Calgary Flames is the best team in all the land" - My Brainwashed Son
Location: A simple man leading a complicated life....
Exp:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheese
I think quitting religion is as tough as quitting smoking or drugs for many people. Religion is something we are brought up with, something we are told is the right thing by parents and grandparents. That trust is a difficult thing to break, but our family did not have the information we have at our fingertips today. Education is the great equalizer.
I strongly disagree. I was a member of an evangelical church for 10 years. I left and never went back. I also grew up in a christian home enviroment.
I saw a revolving door of people joining and leaving during that 10 year time span. Many were young people who came with their parents when they were a child and left as a teen or young adult. Others were adults who chose not believe and left.
There is so much athestic influence outside the church that makes it almost impossible for parents to shield thier children from that. To put it another way I think the indoctrination of children is total BS.
To put it another way I think the indoctrination of children is total BS.
And I strongly disagree with this. You take children at a young and impressionable age, and you lie to them, telling them that there is a God, you should believe in him and you need to live your life in accordance with our set of beliefs (i say lie, which is not even my bias coming out - it is a lie to tell them that this specific god does indeed exist, without a doubt. I don't think many parents or churches broach the other possibilities all too often, and instead construe what they personally believe as a fact, which is dishonesty at its finest to those who cannot fully comprehend the issue at hand themselves).
Children are susceptible to this especially because they might not recognize other sources of information contradicting what their parents telling them as valid, as quite frankly we are predisposed to believe people in a position of authority (like your parents). What your parents tell you becomes the truth regardless of what other people say.
This obviously doesn't hold true for your entire life, you will mature intellectually and be able to evaluate what you are told and what you are taught, but quite honestly I think that the "indoctrination" of children is still effective in this day and age, which is one of the reasons that it persists.
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Cain For This Useful Post:
And I strongly disagree with this. You take children at a young and impressionable age, and you lie to them, telling them that there is a God, you should believe in him and you need to live your life in accordance with our set of beliefs (i say lie, which is not even my bias coming out - it is a lie to tell them that this specific god does indeed exist, without a doubt. I don't think many parents or churches broach the other possibilities all too often, and instead construe what they personally believe as a fact, which is dishonesty at its finest to those who cannot fully comprehend the issue at hand themselves).
Children are susceptible to this especially because they might not recognize other sources of information contradicting what their parents telling them as valid, as quite frankly we are predisposed to believe people in a position of authority (like your parents). What your parents tell you becomes the truth regardless of what other people say.
This obviously doesn't hold true for your entire life, you will mature intellectually and be able to evaluate what you are told and what you are taught, but quite honestly I think that the "indoctrination" of children is still effective in this day and age, which is one of the reasons that it persists.
Dion you should listen to this guy. Not only is he mentioned quite a few times in the Bible, so we know he knows his religion, but he's not a guy you want to piss off. I heard he killed his brother.
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Cecil Terwilliger For This Useful Post:
Dion you should listen to this guy. Not only is he mentioned quite a few times in the Bible, so we know he knows his religion, but he's not a guy you want to piss off. I heard he killed his brother.
It's true! A lot of people do seem to make the biblical connection to my name, but unfortunately it is not why I chose it!
Location: A simple man leading a complicated life....
Exp:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cain
And I strongly disagree with this. You take children at a young and impressionable age, and you lie to them, telling them that there is a God, you should believe in him and you need to live your life in accordance with our set of beliefs (i say lie, which is not even my bias coming out - it is a lie to tell them that this specific god does indeed exist, without a doubt. I don't think many parents or churches broach the other possibilities all too often, and instead construe what they personally believe as a fact, which is dishonesty at its finest to those who cannot fully comprehend the issue at hand themselves).
Children are susceptible to this especially because they might not recognize other sources of information contradicting what their parents telling them as valid, as quite frankly we are predisposed to believe people in a position of authority (like your parents). What your parents tell you becomes the truth regardless of what other people say.
This obviously doesn't hold true for your entire life, you will mature intellectually and be able to evaluate what you are told and what you are taught, but quite honestly I think that the "indoctrination" of children is still effective in this day and age, which is one of the reasons that it persists.
It's not a lie when you are asked to believe in a faith. My parents couldn't prove that God exists and my minister couldn't either. During my 10 years in the church I was often asked if I could prove God exists and my response was always that you can't prove a faith. At the same time you can't prove that God doesn't exist.
As for indoctrination I think we have a difference of opinion on the meaning. If no child raised in Christian home never left the church I might be inclinded to believe in your definition. Once a child becomes a teen and an adult you can't force them to attend or believe.
I left the church because of my view that organised religion is hypocritical. Too quick to pass judgement and not enough forgiveness. Most of it was from my own personal experience and that of a good friend.
Neil deGrasse Tyson I think addresses this type of thing pretty well:
I agree with a lot of Tyson's sentiment. *If* his overall goal is to educate people and sway them to his side of the debate, Dawkins' methods are not as effective as they could be.
I'm sure that many people find him incredibly condescending and disregard what he has to say. Being a jerk, or being perceived as one, is far from being militant or hating your opponent.
Tyson was describing Dawkins with regard to his position in the educational community and his criticism (in that regard) is warranted, and well-informed considering that Neil deGrasse Tyson has held a somewhat similar position. I don't think that such a responsibility as taking into account his opponents state of mind should be applied generally to Dawkins, though.
Location: A simple man leading a complicated life....
Exp:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger
Dion you should listen to this guy. Not only is he mentioned quite a few times in the Bible, so we know he knows his religion, but he's not a guy you want to piss off. I heard he killed his brother.
I strongly disagree. I was a member of an evangelical church for 10 years. I left and never went back. I also grew up in a christian home enviroment.
I saw a revolving door of people joining and leaving during that 10 year time span. Many were young people who came with their parents when they were a child and left as a teen or young adult. Others were adults who chose not believe and left.
There is so much athestic influence outside the church that makes it almost impossible for parents to shield thier children from that. To put it another way I think the indoctrination of children is total BS.
You'll note that I said for "many people", not all. There are literally hundreds if not thousands of websites for recovering theists of all stripes on the internet...it has a hold much stronger than you think it does. Obviously you or your family were not heavily involved.
It is a fact that children are indoctrinated in all religions...if that wasnt the case then North America would not be predominantly Christian, Afghanistan would not be predominantly Muslim, Thailand would not be Buddhist, etc etc. A child has NO choice what to follow, they are fed the choice of their grandparents and parents and the elders of their respective churches. Sending our children to bed with the thought in their head that if they do bad they will have to go to a place of eternal torture simply is not healthy, as is the idea that they get to live in a place of glory if they follow the word of Christ.
The guilt we lay on children about something as innocent as masturbation, or the pain that the religious inflict upon the young homosexual, severe enough to drive many of them to suicide are a few examples of religion teaching horrible horrible lies.
Why lie to children? If it was anything else, any other lie or lies as severe, parents would be charged with abuse.
So much time and energy wasted on an invisible friend. So many bad lessons about morality, thinking, and sex. So much needless guilt.
Last edited by Cheese; 02-06-2011 at 09:25 PM.
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Cheese For This Useful Post:
I'm sure that many people find him incredibly condescending and disregard what he has to say. Being a jerk, or being perceived as one, is far from being militant or hating your opponent.
But there's that whole idea of needing to be sensitive to someone's state of mind again.
If he decides to attack a belief in a condescending manner it can be perceived a number of different ways. To his fans, he seems to just be laying out facts. To an outside and neutral observer, he may appear to be slightly abrasive or jerkish. For someone who holds the beliefs that he's attacking as absolute truths that they've based their lives around, this can appear as a direct attack not only on the beliefs but on them personally. If you believe someone is devoting their life and career to attacking you, it's not that far of a jump to think of them as a militant that hates you.
I personally believe people have an innate spiritual sense. I believe there are good and evil forces although they may not be represented by a figure named god or satan.
Of the stong nuclear, weak nuclear, gravitational and electromagnetic forces, which are the good ones and which the the evil ones?
Of the stong nuclear, weak nuclear, gravitational and electromagnetic forces, which are the good ones and which the the evil ones?
I'd say gravity is the evil one, because that's the one that still hasn't been fully resolved with the others. Luckily it's very weak, but unfortunately exerts its influence on the greatest area.
The guilt we lay on children about something as innocent as masturbation, or the pain that the religious inflict upon the young homosexual, severe enough to drive many of them to suicide are a few examples of religion teaching horrible horrible lies.
Why lie to children? If it was anything else, any other lie or lies as severe, parents would be charged with abuse.
So much time and energy wasted on an invisible friend. So many bad lessons about morality, thinking, and sex. So much needless guilt.
I grew up in an atheistic home so I never believed much of religion's teachings, so I don't have that resentment but from what I've learned as an adult, I don't confuse religion with my knowledge of god.
To answer your first question, I accept that we can't prove or disprove a god. If you were to say that the Christian religion is a magical fairy-tale I don't have anything that can prove otherwise.
To answer your second question, my mother has a magnet on her fridge of a quote by Roy Levin that says "What God asks you to lift, He gives you the grace to carry". If you believe that, it's an added source of strength to handle any problems that come your way. In addition I used to be addicted to pop, I needed about a litre a day. I gave it up for lent one year. I'm not even Catholic, but having that set 40 days was a small enough target that see the end and it didn't feel like an uphill battle. It temporary, whereas if I gave it up for say New Year's I'd be back on the Coke-train a week or so later. Religion helped me kick my habit (replaced it with coffee mind you, but black coffee has far less sugar).
As for the practice what you preach philosophy. Having a United Protestant father, Catholic mother, Muslim uncle, I grew up in a family very open with religion and one that wasn't defined by it. While both my parents are fairly religious, I was taught to be open to others beliefs and ideals. Part of the reason I don't get involved into religious debates is because they aren't true debates, there isn't an open back and forth of ideas.
. . . so now I'll go back to lurking
Since you're intent on lurking, I will honour that and send you a PM instead!
(Sometime tomorrow though, I am falling asleep here)
If you believe someone is devoting their life and career to attacking you, it's not that far of a jump to think of them as a militant that hates you.
You're right. There is a certain segment of the human population that leap to false conclusions without sufficient evidence to justify doing so. This is just a very specific example of it. (This actually includes everyone... I can even convince myself that Rene Bourque is going to come out of his slump every time he scores in a shootout.)
To wrongly label somebody out of ignorance of what they are actually doing, doesn't make the label true.
My point is that if Dawkins is attacking anyone, it is the people who are in positions of power among the religious structures -for both their conduct and their attempt to discredit scientific fact. Otherwise, he is describing people who are ignorant about science as ignorant about the world, which they are because they misunderstand the way the world works.
I don't think I am alone in thinking this way (although I may be). If a doctor criticizes a Christian Scientist vigorously for obstructing necessary medical care for their children and labels that person as ignorant, the doctor is not a "militant physician". She is an expert in an area of human understanding who is illuminating the way the world works. She is not attacking the person, but the position arrived at through faith rather than reason.
I grew up in an atheistic home so I never believed much of religion's teachings, so I don't have that resentment but from what I've learned as an adult, I don't confuse religion with my knowledge of god.
Trying to compute?
You know God and he isnt part of any religion?
You have a God that noone else knows about?
