Kananaskis Logging: Planned West Bragg Creek & Moose Mountain Clearcut

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Salt Water Cowboy #10

I’ve noticed the guy likes a good argument. Enjoys playing devils advocate, and knows more about most things than everyone. And usually tosses in an insult or some degrading comment. But he signed the petition, yet somehow defends the logging company because people that don’t want the trees removed are NIMBY. I don’t know how anyone could be on the loggers side. It’s clearly easy pickins for them, and they don’t give a #### about hiker,bikers or trail users. Or the people of bragg creek.

How is being against logging in the area defending the logging company?

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by TrentCrimmIndependent

I'm not sure if Pepsi has hiked/used the moose mountain area but based on his criticism of people saying don't do it there, he probably doesn't have any personal connection with the area. If you've been up to the station you'll understand what makes it a gem of a location and why locals who have a fond appreciation for it would want to shield it from any mass logging operation.

There's always a justification for why someone will make a statement but it takes a bigger person than some of the virtue signalers here are willing to be to ask questions and understand another person's POV before coming out and labeling them selfish/animal haters or whatever is being subtly implied by their responses.

Can only speak for what I've posted but I never said clearing elsewhere was desirable either. I said it was terrible all the same, but the lesser of two poisons if forced to choose. I think there's a leap/assumption to go from interpreting "please don't do that here, if you must do it there" to "yes, do it there! Don't care as long as i don't see it! #### the wildlife!"

Alberta is run by the UCP, the development monster isn't slowing down any time soon and these companies have rights to this land unfortunately. This is the somber reality we live in. Yes.. in an idealistic world we'd snap our fingers and have no more logging in these areas. Unfortunately it's not the world we live in, so hard decisions have to be made.

Sometimes the intent to make examples of people here without first understanding them or any other POV on the situation is laughably and sadly dense.

I used to get pretty riled by it but then I realized the individuals who do this as a hobby in the OT come at people from a very narrow perspective without the intent of expanding theirs or empathizing with any one elses perspective in most instances.

So in the end, it's nonsensical to take an offense to it or become personally engaged in defending a position that they're not willing to understand.

This doesn’t sound like someone who is willing to expand their perspective or empathize with mine.

There's always a justification for why someone will make a statement but it takes a bigger person than some of the virtue signalers here are willing to be to ask questions and understand another person's POV before coming out and labeling them dishonest/logging lobbyists or whatever is being subtly implied by their responses.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by fotze2

There are some monster gas wells that Shell drilled and still producing at Moose Mountain, its nuts because you would never know they are there. Super nice area, surely there are better places to target no one gives an F about.
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They named a bike trail after one of the wells, 7-27.


There is a trade-off here:

Recreation (quality of life, physical fitness and an attractant to people moving to the area)
Tourist Economy (they should be building hotels in Bragg Creek, there is a ton of money already coming into Bragg Creek from people going to the area to bike/hike/horse/ski, they could do even more)

Versus:

Cost of removing trees here vs. somewhere else people care less about


Honestly, it seems like we should figure out what the cost delta is for the logging company to go somewhere else and get Bragg Creek, the Province, and trail users to pay them some $ to piss off elsewhere.

I'd donate some money to the trail associations if it helped make this happen.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Aw yeah...thats the stuff...

[D as in David]

Originally Posted by Bill Bumface

They named a bike trail after one of the wells, 7-27.


There is a trade-off here:

Recreation (quality of life, physical fitness and an attractant to people moving to the area)
Tourist Economy (they should be building hotels in Bragg Creek, there is a ton of money already coming into Bragg Creek from people going to the area to bike/hike/horse/ski, they could do even more)

Versus:

Cost of removing trees here vs. somewhere else people care less about


Honestly, it seems like we should figure out what the cost delta is for the logging company to go somewhere else and get Bragg Creek, the Province, and trail users to pay them some $ to piss off elsewhere.

I'd donate some money to the trail associations if it helped make this happen.

It's too bad the clear-cutting won't negatively impact the pristine views because the UCP would shut that down toot-sweet.

Oh...wait.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I get what you’re saying, I just don’t think it’s as clear cut (lol) as you think it is. There is definitely some flavour of selfishness to it. Like the whole “go do it over there, not over here”/“it’s fine that I use this area for what I want but they shouldn’t change it because they want something different” thing is weird to me.

I don’t think it’s disingenuous just because some people don’t like to be called NIMBY. I’m fine for people to reject this on actual grounds (like you already did, like I said), but it’s the whole “do it somewhere I don’t have to look at it” thing that’s really stupid to me. That’s just NIMBY stuff.

There are 367,000,000 hectares of forest in Canada. I don't think it's crazy to NIMBY these 738 hectares for a flimsy reason like leisure & recreation - which for thousands of locals may also rank in their personal top 5 or 10 reasons for working and generally existing. Totally reasonable thing to be selfish for.

Are there some different impacts from doing this 'elsewhere' (ie. more remote)? Of course. It's a fair position to oppose clear-cutting anywhere and everywhere. It's also reasonable to accept some degree of inevitability for this type of resource extraction and fight for it to not happen where it will be personally detrimental...

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

There are 367,000,000 hectares of forest in Canada. I don't think it's crazy to NIMBY these 738 hectares for a flimsy reason like leisure & recreation - which for thousands of locals may also rank in their personal top 5 or 10 reasons for working and generally existing. Totally reasonable thing to be selfish for.

Are there some different impacts from doing this 'elsewhere' (ie. more remote)? Of course. It's a fair position to oppose clear-cutting anywhere and everywhere. It's also reasonable to accept some degree of inevitability for this type of resource extraction and fight for it to not happen where it will be personally detrimental...

For sure it’s a reasonable thing to NIMBY about, but that’s still all it is. Just because it’s a selfish NIMBY thing doesn’t mean it’s equal to “I don’t want immigrants in my neighbourhood” kind of stuff. It just doesn’t make a lot of sense for people to play the exact same cards and then get upset when the label fits. Maybe realizing it makes them expand their thinking by empathizing with other people they think are NIMBYs or they think more deeply about the issue and come up with a position that’s more difficult to dismiss.

For example, the 738 hectares thing has been brought up a few times. “It’s only 738” … “It’s 0.15% of what they can log” … “We aren’t opposed to logging, just not here” … so, if WFTC came to the table and said, “OK, we’ll protect those 738 hectares, but we’re going to clear cut the rest” would that be the solution people are looking for? If they took the map Fuzz presented and just clear cut all the white areas instead of the yellow, that would be better? That would be a solution?

Or, does the conversation need to be bigger than 738 hectares? There’s very likely a financial component to this, as Bumface mentioned, but there are also animal conservation and aboriginal consultation factors that go into these FMAs.

If it turned out that, in this given area, these were the only sections where protected wildlife would not be disturbed and local rights would be respected, would people still be opposed? Would they still want it moved elsewhere? How important is recreation against the habitat of a Grizzly Bear?

[kevman]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

If they took the map Fuzz presented and just clear cut all the white areas instead of the yellow, that would be better? That would be a solution?

It would be worse, way worse.

If you look at the map Fuzz provided, the clear cut areas generally stay away from the trails. I can't find it now but there is a map showing the trail overlap. Beyond a few chunks on Race of Spades, the trails on Moose are left relatively unaffected. Impacts to West Bragg are mostly on Sugar Moma/Daddy and the most popular routes are left mostly untouched.

We've been down this road before right after they built all the trails and while you're riding West Bragg you can barely tell they harvested anything. As a bonus, the logging roads could be used as a make a short cut for riding Special K until they reclaimed them.

If you look at the satellite view, you'll see the volume of proposed logging is generally in line with what they did last time. You'll also notice very generous trail right of ways. Far more generous than what's currently proposed. I think that's the end goal here personally. They're not going to simply abandon their plan to log the area, but hopefully the opposition leads to a better interface with the existing trail network like the last harvest.

As for the satellite view, you definitely don't want to look south in Maclean. There's not much of a forest left.

[Fuzz]

I'd have to argue about "not being able to notice". Many areas are bare and exposed that weren't before.

Spoiler!

[habernac]

Yeah, definitely noticeable. I started mountain biking in the area long before West Bragg was built up. 1995. Moose mountain was heaven. Sulphur springs, moosepacker’s. Loved those trails. So ridiculous to even fathom that they’d cut this all down.

[kevman]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

I'd have to argue about "not being able to notice". Many areas are bare and exposed that weren't before.

Spoiler!

Now where are the trails on that map? What trails go through large clear cut areas other than Snakes and Ladders? (Which was built in 2015 after the logging in 2013.)

They left a buffer around the trails in 2013.


You absolutely cross reclaimed logging roads, but the trails themselves are still in the trees.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by kevman

Now where are the trails on that map? What trails go through large clear cut areas other than Snakes and Ladders? (Which was built in 2015 after the logging in 2013.)

They left a buffer around the trails in 2013.


You absolutely cross reclaimed logging roads, but the trails themselves are still in the trees.

Spoiler!

This was taken here:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/aTkuHA4vtnZspdpN6


on particularly good snow day. Often this area is in really poor shape because without trees, the wind strips the snow off.


It's easy enough to pan around and see other spots like this:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/fYGjUEQu8e7xYTrVA

[cral12]

A friendly bump of this as we approach May 20/24 - West Fraser Timber said something about a May 20th deadline (though maybe that was just a date they came up with)

[cral12]

From BCKOR:

Con·serve verb /kənˈsərv/

protect (something, especially an environmentally or culturally important place or thing) from harm or destruction.

ie. "The funds raised will help conserve the Outdoor Recreation areas in Kananaskis."

"The West Bragg and Moose Mountain trail network have become the most popular Outdoor Recreation area in Alberta, located outside of the parks.

​The dedicated volunteers of the Bragg Creek Trails Association and Moose Mountain Bike Trail Society
have invested OVER $6.5 MILLION DOLLARS and 100,000 VOLUNTEER HOURS to create this trail network.

These trails are now attracting ~1,000 visitors per day on average!

It has become so popular that the government is now charging a $90 Conservation Fee to access this crown land area.
The value of this trail network far exceeds the one time benefit that a logging operation will provide."