Official WWE/ECW/WCW/TNA talk, or whatever v2

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by Blaster86

And since I am doing a devil's advocate for "AEW bad" thing this morning, may as well double down. Meltzer has come out and said that AEW attendance is getting to 2000 WCW levels which is... real bad. This goes back to out conversation from a page before.

There's no catastrophic news here, but none of it is "good".

EDIT: Nevermind. Full quote from Dave is upcoming shows in that range.

That's too bad. I hope the WWE fans support AEW and understand two promotions is best for everybody involved. Hopefully Zane Bressloff improves their live events offerings.

[SuperMatt18]

AEW needs to go back to focusing on younger talent and building stories that make sense week to week.

Bloated factions (why does Blackpool combat club still exist), nonsensical storylines (why is Wardlow Adam Cole's lackey now), and just overall storytelling issues are AEWs problem.

The match quality is elite, the actual booking results are generally good in terms of who wins, but how you get to those matches and the stories they tell are terrible most of the time.

[Ozy_Flame]

I agree, too many factions. Need to consolidate, get rid of ROH on AEW TV, and re-focus on the young guys.

[SuperMatt18]

I also think they rushed into too much TV time too quickly.

I used to like being able to watch 2 hours of AEW Dynamite each week and know whats going on.

Then they added Rampage that was a PITA to watch in Canada but didn't really hurt too much.

Then they added Collison which is 2 more hours on Saturday which is also tough to keep track of.

Instead of being a tight and easy to consume 2 hours of TV a week, it's now a tough and bloated 5 hours of TV each week that makes it hard to follow what is going on.

[albertGQ]

So does that mean, all the PLEs like SummerSlam and Wrestlemania will be included in my Netflix subscription?

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

That's too bad. I hope the WWE fans support AEW and understand two promotions is best for everybody involved. Hopefully Zane Bressloff improves their live events offerings.

I don't have to love AEW to know how important a second promotion is. Even if you just love WWE, the best periods of WWE have always come from a challenger pushing them to be better.

I openly dislike AEW booking and I will always agree with Cornette on more things than people probably think I should in regards to the "EVPs" but I am not actively hoping for AEWs demise. I like putting Dynamite on when I am free on a Wednesday night. The roster has amazing talent and there is no denying that on a random Wednesday you have a good chance of getting an amazing athletic performance.

Originally Posted by albertGQ

So does that mean, all the PLEs like SummerSlam and Wrestlemania will be included in my Netflix subscription?

Sounds like it, since it says "Outside USA"

[trackercowe]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

I don't watch WWE (I'm AEW all the way through) but this is fantastic for Canadian viewers. Was NXT even being shown live on Tuesdays on Sportsnet or TSN? I don't think so.

This is going to open the floodgates for other wrestling shows on those services too. I hope they're all on the major platforms within the next five years (AEW, NJPW, TNA, GCW, AAA, etc.)

Yes it was on Sportsnet 360 on Tuesday nights.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

I also think they rushed into too much TV time too quickly.

I agree with this. Rampage is not needed, Collision is good if you like a bit of a brand split (FTR, House of Black, Miro, etc.) but there is no coordination to brand them as such.

I thought AEW Dark on YouTube was perfect. Let's people craft their characters and doesn't need a TV deal to survive. Let the dark matches be watchable for lower-card talent.

ROH needs to either go away entirely, or be rebranded and given its own exclusive slot. It has so much potential to be the NXT of AEW but it needs to be structured much better. I think part of the struggle with AEW at the moment is ROH being given waaaaaay too much AEW TV time, especially ROH belts. No one cares about those.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Blaster86

It's less the fans and more their ability to attract talent. They have quite a few guys who have gone there in recent years citing the ability to work Japan as well. If WWE closes that door.

And since I am doing a devil's advocate for "AEW bad" thing this morning, may as well double down. Meltzer has come out and said that AEW attendance is getting to 2000 WCW levels which is... real bad. This goes back to out conversation from a page before.

There's no catastrophic news here, but none of it is "good".

I can't find this one his twitter feed. Can you link? This is all I could find.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1749729741471690937

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by rubecube

I can't find this one his twitter feed. Can you link? This is all I could find.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1749729741471690937

He said it on WOR, not a twitter post. I don't think it's totally indicative of the business' entire health. Like 2000 WCW was very clearly at death's door in every way. But the attendance getting to those levels isn't great.

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

ROH needs to either go away entirely

Just let it die. For the love of Christ. It's over. It was a huge part of the 00s and 10s, but it's gone now.

[darockwilder]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

I agree with this. Rampage is not needed, Collision is good if you like a bit of a brand split (FTR, House of Black, Miro, etc.) but there is no coordination to brand them as such.

I thought AEW Dark on YouTube was perfect. Let's people craft their characters and doesn't need a TV deal to survive. Let the dark matches be watchable for lower-card talent.

ROH needs to either go away entirely, or be rebranded and given its own exclusive slot. It has so much potential to be the NXT of AEW but it needs to be structured much better. I think part of the struggle with AEW at the moment is ROH being given waaaaaay too much AEW TV time, especially ROH belts. No one cares about those.

I liked watching Dark, Taz and Excalibur were way more entertaining on there. They could test some storyline stuff there too.

[trackercowe]

Here's the quote from Meltzer about AEW attendance that Blaster had brought up earlier.

"(AEW attendance) is not good. One of the things is like, there were a lot of weak advances in the last quarter, but they had a lot of the shows where they got late buys, whether it was bringing in #Okada or Mistico, or having an #MJF or #KennyOmega match, or just good local promotion, or lowering ticket prices, things like that.

"And so, I kind of got lulled into this sense of, 'okay the advances suck, but it's not that bad'. And it really wasn't that bad the last quarter, Well, now, it's that bad. And it looks worse.

"Wednesday's show, they're under 2,000. To me, under 4,000 for Dynamite is where it gets to be below so-so. 4,000 to me is fine for #AEW. Under 4,000 not so great. Under 3,000, pretty bad. Under 2,000 is really bad. Especially when you're coming to a city once a year.

"They've got Tulsa coming up, they've never been to Tulsa, they're under 2,000 there as well. And then the last week, St Louis on Saturday, when I saw that number… #StLouis is a historically great wrestling city, it's not like they come there often, and to do under 3,000 on a Saturday night, it's really not good at all.

"Another problem that they have is that every time they go back to a market, in more cases than not, the attendance goes down. There's always exceptions to every rule, but in more cases than not they go down. And it's like, okay, when you're at 4,000 and you're going down, not so great. When you're at 2,800 and you're going down in a major city, where are you headed?

"You're getting now to #WCW 2000. And people hate when I use that term, but they're getting there. And that's a scary place to be.

"There's a lot of things that they could do, but they haven't. I know that Kosha Irby's in, and this is actually his job, his job is going to be to get this stuff up. And it's way too early to put any blame on him, he just got there.

"Even if you're the greatest promoter in the world, people are gonna buy more or less based on the product and the excitement of the product.

[SuperMatt18]

They did that to themselves too.

They had good attendance when prices were reasonable. Then they jacked the prices up and the advances sucked, so they tried to make it up by cutting the prices in the days before the show to get more walk ups, which just pissed the actual fans that paid premiums early off.

Even if you're not going back to the same cities that type of thing spreads around the internet quickly.

It's how it was in Calgary. They announced it as a "house show" and had ridiculous prices for a house show. Then it was changed to collision once that show was announced but advance sales were still just okay and then on the day or two before the event tickets were over 50% off.

Now for their show this year the prices are more reasonable, and they really cut down the available tickets with less than 1/4 of the seats in the saddledome even available for sale, and it still looks like way more than half of the tickets are left to purchase still.

[Ozy_Flame]

Yeah, their marketing strategy isn't good at all. That said, because AEW is doing alot of revisits to previous locations and doing last minute ticket drops, people are probably waiting closer to the date to pull the trigger.

That's all on AEW though. And it sure doesn't help when they change the type of show after tickets go on sale, or when advertised talent changes frequently or because of their huge roster, some superstars are not going to be there.

This is why if AEW is going to do a brand split, they need to make it official so fans don't get their hopes up in seeing the top talent on a show they're not entirely sure they will show up on.

It also doesn't help they apparently chase the same locations after WWE shows not long after. People don't have unlimited money to throw at premium-priced wrestling events.

All in all, I think people want to go to AEW shows, but live events have become a bit unreliable. They're coming to Toronto and I would normally have bought a ticket by now but I'm going to wait closer to the date. They've trained me this way. But at least they're in Coca-Cola Coliseum again. I don't think they could do Scotiabank Arena unless it was for a PPV like Forbidden Door again (which was an AMAZING PPV that was jam-packed).

[CaptainCrunch]

WCW was an interesting study in how to kill a business.

WCW was bleeding money like crazy, beyond spending on a bloated roster where half the workers were paid 6 figure salaries to sit at home, they were doing a lot of stunts. Bringing in Kiss and a rap group as a faction, that was destroyed by Curt Hennings fake country band "Rap is Crap" look it up.

They booked nearly every belt into oblivion, making decisions like putting the World title on David Arquette. People stopped carrying about main event title belt matches.

They stopped being original. Eric had a great concept in the NWO, but then proceeded to wreck it, by making nearly every wrestler join. Then splitting it, then continually bringing it back. Having workers like Scott Norton in the NWO was stupid, it should have stayed as an exclusive group.

Lets not forget the Sting - Hogan debacle, the power plays by Hogan and Nash especially killed the company. They had the golden goose to save the company with Bret Hart and flittered that away.

The WCW was its own worst enemy, and eventually Eric and an out of control locker room killed the golden goose.

Obviously things aren't that bad in AEW I think Dave is exagerrating a bit, and the problems in AEW aren't terminal. But there are a lot of lessons that Tony hasn't learned.

AEW does have a bloated roster with workers sitting at home, that's easing a bit as workers aren't resigning, and I expect that trend to continue as contracts come up.

The booking is nonsensical and isn't logical. To add to that the whole I went to AEW for the freedom to say what I want to say and do what I want to do is falling flat. Its exposed workers who were previously good under the control of WWE producers as not being as good with that freedom.

But for the most part the story lines don't make much sense.

Too much control by the workers and weak leadership from Tony. This is very WCW and a problem. Also Tony's unhinged social media work has to stop.

Their upper card that was strong for a long time looks weak through attrition and injuries and there aren't a lot of workers that are stepping up to fill that vacuum.

The high price of attending a AEW show, I've seen the stats on the ticket prices and its insane. Tony it feels like is trying to generate full house revenues in half and 3/4 empty houses. He needs to move the shows to smaller venues.

The death of ROH, its a wrecked brand

Too many belts have made belts irrelevant.

Over booking on MJF, he was involved in every story line it felt like. Now he's gone.

Too many wrestlers playing executive.

No real booking direction or consistancy.

The problem with AEW is more in the leadership then anything. Tony is coming across as a bad booker and even worse a bad business owner. I've also said for a long time that workers shouldn't be involved in the booking room. That's different then a wrestler being involved in creative and giving input after booking decisions.

I don't think that AEW is as badly off as Meltzer says. I think the problems are fixable, but its a tough fix. Tony needs to bring in serious business managers, and serious producers and put the clamp down on some workers. They need to do a hard reset on storylines, call it a season 2 or whatever. AEW needs to do a roster review and pare it down to save money, they need to book into smaller businesses to give the shows more energy.

But if the rumors of AEW losing money are true, how long is Tony's old man going to stand by and watch that, especially with the problems with his NFL and soccer team?

[rubecube]

From what I've read previously, they do an absolutely abysmal job of promoting these shows locally. The card isn't known well enough in advance and they don't get themselves on the local morning shows, radio, etc., like WWE do.

I think it was the latest Grand Slam, where there reports that a lot of residents had no idea it was happening until the day before the show, and then their ticket sales went way up.

[CaptainCrunch]

I think that one of the interesting points that Meltzer points out, and who knows if its true. But attendance drops in same towns. That's a bad thing, they're not establishing markets then.

[trackercowe]

Apparently they have less than 2,000 seats sold for tonight's show. Yikes...

Also here is the card for tonight:

Penta El Zero Miedo vs Hangman Page
Toni Storm and Deonna Purrazzo face-to-face interview
Minoru Suzuki vs Adam Copeland
Wardlow vs Trent Beretta
Thunder Rosa vs Red Velvet
Hardy vs. Swerve
The Acclaimed vs. Mogul Embassy

There might be some fine wrestling involved, but every match is predictable, and most are just thrown together with no storyline backing them. Why bother watching if the booking basically comes to pulling names out two hats (jobbers and non-jobbers)?

[CaptainCrunch]

That's not a great card that's going to fill a house. I know their main event has been devastated, but wow.



I can't be all that unusual that I haven't exactly been fired up with what they're doing with Adam Copeland.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

That's not a great card that's going to fill a house. I know their main event has been devastated, but wow.



I can't be all that unusual that I haven't exactly been fired up with what they're doing with Adam Copeland.

Me neither...

Fans: "look at all the cool new matches and fueds we get to see with Edge in AEW"

AEW: "Let's give you Christian vs Edge, you've never seen that before!"

1.8K fans is abysmal and that's a really bad sign, IMO that card isn't that bad. I still feel like the hardcore AEW fans don't want to see the ex-WWE wrestlers that much, the hardcore WWE fans aren't following the ex-WWE guys to AEW at all, and the casual fans have completly lost track of AEW and their product as it no longer feels fun and different than WWE.