[GT] US election - It's 2020, what could possibly go wrong?

[afc wimbledon]

what is dangerous about Trump's wholesale adoption of the demonization of 'the other', the liberal elites, Black lives matter, Antifa and latino's and the like is the basic playbook for a fascist takeover, fascism needs an internal enemy to drive its self forward and persuade the less committed followers to ignore the loss of democracy, no one gives up their freedom unless they are convinced it is neccersary to 'protect' them from some internal threat

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Iraq under Saddam Hussein had one of the most heavily armed civilian populations in the world (I believe it was second only to the U.S. at the time). It's one of the major reasons toppling him from the inside was practically impossible. Today, Yemen holds that honour. One of the first things the U.S. did when they occupied Iraq was take their guns away.

In most parts of the world, assault weapons are seen as a tool of oppression and not freedom.

I remember reading a Guardian news byline back in the 70's, while China was still under the Gang of Four about a train blowing up in rural china and the authorities were unable to decide whether it was a terrorist act by some disgruntled ethnic (code for Tibetian) group or just some guy who was going fishing with dynamite and screwed up, apparently you could just buy dynamite to fish with in commie China

[#-3]

Originally Posted by peter12

The comparisons are superficial. The depth of economic crisis in Germany was so incredibly beyond even 2008,
I think the risk that shutdowns could roll through again and see 20% unemployment again exists, with out the crazy level of government spending we saw in the spring its hard to say how the markets could recover from a 2nd shock like this in 1 year. Not saying it will happen, but maybe we should avoid tempting fate.

there were literally private street militia gangs with rival power to the actual military, politics was diffused along multiple radical lines, and there was intense cultural nostalgia for a more powerful, and racially pure Germany.
Once again, we aren't there yet, but US civilians are armed like crazy, we've already seen deaths in the streets due to political unrest, militia groups marching on government buildings, and plots to kill politicians. Not saying it will happen the same way, but should we be tempting fate

All this combined with failed yearnings for continentalworld supremacy, a literal struggle to the death rivalry with FranceRussian, China, Mexico..., deep cultural anti-Semitism racism, and resentment over imagined mistreatment at Versailles .

It isn’t close - even if you can see some pretend similarities, there is nothing like cultural nostalgia in the US for some Wagnerian past of pure Germanic peoples uniting for global conquest."Make America Great Again" the movement is literally founded on cultural nostalgia

Also, even in times of remarkable instability, the American rule of law has proven incredibly strong. Look at the litany of failed Trump lawsuits.You mean like the Secretary of State, and Sitting Senators calling the results of an election into question?

American authoritarianism is pretend authoritarianism - which makes it more pathetic, in my eyes.

This is a nice thought, but it's just not a risk worth taking

[peter12]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

what is dangerous about Trump's wholesale adoption of the demonization of 'the other', the liberal elites, Black lives matter, Antifa and latino's and the like is the basic playbook for a fascist takeover, fascism needs an internal enemy to drive its self forward and persuade the less committed followers to ignore the loss of democracy, no one gives up their freedom unless they are convinced it is neccersary to 'protect' them from some internal threat

A mature political outlook sees “othering” as a perennial part of every political system. It doesn’t magically just go away in a democracy.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by #-3

This is a nice thought, but it's just not a risk worth taking

So you can shoehorn anything into a political fantasy? Cool.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Iraq under Saddam Hussein had one of the most heavily armed civilian populations in the world (I believe it was second only to the U.S. at the time). It's one of the major reasons toppling him from the inside was practically impossible. Today, Yemen holds that honour. One of the first things the U.S. did when they occupied Iraq was take their guns away.

In most parts of the world, assault weapons are seen as a tool of oppression and not freedom.

I had just been reading Quigley (Tragedy and Hope - great but so dense, every sentence is like whoa) and recalled this from his wiki. Not that I support it just that he offered the following which seems relevant.

Weapons and democracy
From a historical study of weapons and political dynamics, Quigley concludes that the characteristics of weapons are the main predictor of democracy.[11][12] Democracy tends to emerge only when the best weapons available are easy for individuals to buy and use.[13] This explains why democracy occurs so rarely in human history.[14]

In the 1800s (peaking in the 1880s), guns were the best weapon available. In America, almost everyone could afford to buy a gun, and could learn how to use it fairly easily. Governments couldn't do any better: it became the age of mass armies of citizen soldiers with guns.[13] (Similarly, Periclean Greece was an age of the citizen soldier and of democracy[14]).

In the 1900s, expensive, specialist weapons (such as tanks and bombers) became available, and citizen soldiers became dominated by specialist soldiers.[15] Quigley notes that the slaughter of World War I (1914-1918) was due to the mismatch between the traditional armies (citizen soldiers) and the available weapons (machine guns used defensively).[16]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carroll_Quigley

[GreenLantern2814]

Does anyone else get uncomfortable when too many people agree with them?

Or is that just me?

[BoLevi]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Does anyone else get uncomfortable when too many people agree with them?

Or is that just me?

I wouldn't know.

[The Yen Man]

What Trumpers who back this crazy notion of voter fraud is essentially doing is they are willing to bring down their own democratic process in order to win. Pretty ironic yet again that these so called people who value democracy is all for tactics from traditional dictatorships. But backing Trump has always required one to be hypocritical and immoral all for the sake of winning at all costs. So can't say I'm surprised.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by peter12

A mature political outlook sees “othering” as a perennial part of every political system. It doesn’t magically just go away in a democracy.

I haven't noticed any othering in Canada or the UK outside of nationalist parties,

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by peter12

So you can shoehorn anything into a political fantasy? Cool.

Or maybe people just think parallels between the horrible wannabe authoritarian regime down south and the one in Germany in the 1930s are interesting.

It doesn’t have to be some exercise prophecy. Seems like an odd battle to fight to try and control the conversation.

[direwolf]

Another Trump official tests positive for Covid-19.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/11/polit...use/index.html

White House political affairs director Brian Jack has tested positive for coronavirus, an official confirmed to CNN on Wednesday.

The White House declined to comment on Jack specifically, but said in a statement that positive cases are "taken seriously."

"Contact tracing has been conducted by the White House Medical Unit consistent with CDC guidelines to stop further transmission. Appropriate notifications and recommendations have been made," the statement said.

Jack attended the election night party held indoors over a week ago.

[bob-loblaw]

If I was Biden, I wouldn't move any people into the White House complex until mid-February just to give a chance for the Covid to leave that place.

[djsFlames]

Originally Posted by bob-loblaw

If I was Biden, I wouldn't move any people into the White House complex until mid-February just to give a chance for the Covid to leave that place.

I'd be fumigating the place after four years of Trump family occupancy.

[scotty2hotty]

That would actually be a fantastic symbolic move.

Make it very well known that they are doing a top to bottom scrubbing and sterilization of the WH before the Biden family moves in.

[Dion]

[#-3]

Originally Posted by peter12

So you can shoehorn anything into a political fantasy? Cool.

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

Or maybe people just think parallels between the horrible wannabe authoritarian regime down south and the one in Germany in the 1930s are interesting.

It doesn’t have to be some exercise prophecy. Seems like an odd battle to fight to try and control the conversation.

That, and parallels aside. People who have spent enough time grappling with history know a few things. American is in no way some special gem that can avoid the pitfalls of past and present regimes. And things in 30s Germany didn't need to turn out the way they did.

When people gain power after telling you they want to steal elections, drive out minorities, prosecute their enemies, you should take them seriously and you should be very very concerned. Weather or not they succeed, you should speak out against it.

And I'm not interested in some intellectual debate on the lefts musing about jailing Trump at this time. He is literally an unindicted conspirator in a crime that has been successfully committed, and the trust of the debate is not about if he is a criminal, it is about weather it is too politically dangerous to convict him of crimes not only everyone knows he has committed but at times he has publicly admitted to committing. And comparisons would be tiresome.

Also not interested in engaging with the rights fantasies about the left trying to steel the election, allegations of defrauding American voters are virtually none existent on a scale sufficient to steal even the 2000 election, and where the do exist they are almost exclusively on behalf of republicans. The projection is getting a little embarrassing.

Finally social infrastructure does not equate to the 1 party oppressive regimes of 20th century eastern Europe. You aren't being oppressed when a duly elected government taxes you to build roads are something. Comparing that to the guys who want to vilify and lock up minorities is just a little silly.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Sorry, which crimes are those? I agree that he's probably guilty of obstruction of justice, as detailed in the Mueller report. But I'm not aware of anything else that's actually convictable. I suspect he actually has committed sexual assault, for example, but I don't believe for a moment that you could prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. And if obstruction is all you have to go on I don't know that it's worth it.

I see two potential outcomes. One, Trump is pardoned and state officials agree not to pursue any charges that wouldn't be covered by a federal pardon. Two, the white house effectively says, "we're not interfering in any investigations or prosecutions of former president Trump in any way, and the officials responsible for carrying out those prosecutions will do so without any influence from us." I'm not sure which is the right course.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Sorry, which crimes are those? I agree that he's probably guilty of obstruction of justice, as detailed in the Mueller report. But I'm not aware of anything else that's actually convictable. I suspect he actually has committed sexual assault, for example, but I don't believe for a moment that you could prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. And if obstruction is all you have to go on I don't know that it's worth it.

I see two potential outcomes. One, Trump is pardoned and state officials agree not to pursue any charges that wouldn't be covered by a federal pardon. Two, the white house effectively says, "we're not interfering in any investigations or prosecutions of former president Trump in any way, and the officials responsible for carrying out those prosecutions will do so without any influence from us." I'm not sure which is the right course.

I am certain he and the rest of his shysty family will be guilty of misuse of public funds, insider trading and a host of other grifts and scams to steal a few million from the tax payer, I am also certain they will turn out to be patheticly small obvious grifts for small amounts, a few million here a few million there as Donny boy and the rest of the turnips aren't bright enough to see the big picture

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

what is dangerous about Trump's wholesale adoption of the demonization of 'the other', the liberal elites, Black lives matter, Antifa and latino's and the like is the basic playbook for a fascist takeover, fascism needs an internal enemy to drive its self forward and persuade the less committed followers to ignore the loss of democracy, no one gives up their freedom unless they are convinced it is neccersary to 'protect' them from some internal threat

He already openly talks about locking up his political opponents for absolutely no verifiable reason.

The U.S. is already a only a two party system. It wouldn't take much to put it on the brink of being a one-party system. There are millions of people who voted for Trump believing that the Democrats are criminal enterprise full of pedophiles. Another 4 years of Trump and I could see the whole party being outlawed.