Russia invades Ukraine

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Totally agree. In this context, and other contexts like when people say that NATO or the USA killed civilians too. Yeah, for sure civilian casualties and sexual assaults happen far too often in war, but there is a huge difference between making it part of your war effort and something that unfortunately happens, but you try to minimize.

I will defend Russia only to the extent that I think it is wrong for some people to imply that it is something pathological about being Russian. I believe it is systemic, and perhaps cultural to the degree that historical violence and trauma can shape a culture. These things can be turned around if the will is there however.

My assumption would be that its more prevalent where there are strong de-humanizing of the opponents or even superiority of your own side vs the others.

[FlameOn]

Russia just cut natural gas off to Bulgaria as well after hitting Poland earlier today.

https://financialpost.com/pmn/busine...net-pl-reports

[CroFlames]

Canada has lots of natural gas they can sell to democratic countries who wish to buy energy from another democratic country.

[FlameOn]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Canada has lots of natural gas they can sell to democratic countries who wish to buy energy from another democratic country.

For sure. Too bad costal LNG terminals and pipelines can't just spring up overnight.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by Itse

I would like to make a comparison here;

US can't claim it's innocent of bombing civilians. The whole drone war against terrorism was exactly that. Time after time US hit areas with civilians, sometimes in very densely populated, to get this one guy or that. It was an abomination and the whole program was obviously criminal, organized terrorism.

It's still very different from systematically leveling whole cities with artillery, which is what Russia is doing in Ukraine.

Neither are innocents, but clearly the latter is much worse.

The US did a pretty good job leveling Fallujah. Something like 6K artillery rounds and hundreds of missiles/bombs were dropped on the city over the period of a month to weed out a few thousand insurgents. Not quite to the level of Mariupol, but it's estimated that 70% of the city was damaged or destroyed.

[FlameOn]

Get your very own piece of a Russian fighter today!

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by opendoor

The US did a pretty good job leveling Fallujah. Something like 6K artillery rounds and hundreds of missiles/bombs were dropped on the city over the period of a month to weed out a few thousand insurgents. Not quite to the level of Mariupol, but it's estimated that 70% of the city was damaged or destroyed.

while this is true they also went to great lengths not to kill civilians and 'only' 500 to 700 civilians were killed in the battle, Maripol has upwards of an estimated 20,000 deaths

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by FlameOn

Get your very own piece of a Russian fighter today!

That is cheeky and awesome

[blankall]

Originally Posted by opendoor

The US did a pretty good job leveling Fallujah. Something like 6K artillery rounds and hundreds of missiles/bombs were dropped on the city over the period of a month to weed out a few thousand insurgents. Not quite to the level of Mariupol, but it's estimated that 70% of the city was damaged or destroyed.

Firstly, I don't think anyone here is stating that the US's invasion of Iraq was a good thing or even justified.

However, what Russia is doing is still worse. There were two major incursions into Fallujah, that lasted about a month each, and each one resulted in 500-800 dead civilians. Meanwhile, deaths in Mariupol may be already at over 20,000. Russians unnecessary barbarism is increasing casualties 20x what they have to be.

There are ways to minimize deaths that Russia simply is not doing, and for no good reason other than to spread terror among the Ukrainian population.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by blankall

Firstly, I don't think anyone here is stating that the US's invasion of Iraq was a good thing or even justified.

However, what Russia is doing is still worse. There were two major incursions into Fallujah, that lasted about a month each, and each one resulted in 500-800 dead civilians. Meanwhile, deaths in Mariupol may be already at over 20,000. Russians unnecessary barbarism is increasing casualties 20x what they have to be.

There are ways to minimize deaths that Russia simply is not doing, and for no good reason other than to spread terror among the Ukrainian population.

Yeah, I wouldn't conflate the two; obviously the scale of Russia's war crimes is beyond what western powers have done in decades. That said, ultimately a lot of the damage doesn't come just from direct deaths. When coalition forces trashed most of Fallujah, they contributed to a huge refugee crisis and a destabilization of the country that ultimately led to a significant number of civilian deaths. Thankfully for the Ukrainians, those that are able to escape the conflict should be able to get supports from their country and their neighbors after fleeing, which should hopefully reduce the knock on effects of Russia's actions.

[IliketoPuck]

Whataboutism is so infuriating....it minimalizes the topic of discussion. To the benefit of the subject of that discussion.

It lets Russia off the hook, which isn't surprising, since it is a classic Soviet logical fallacy.

Russia, and those that enable this war in any way, shape, or form, deserve nothing but the utmost scorn and disgust.

Until Russia has a moment of national contrition similar to Germany after World War 2, they shouldn't get to be part of global civilized society. Because either overtly or by silence, they enable these atrocities.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by opendoor

Yeah, I wouldn't conflate the two; obviously the scale of Russia's war crimes is beyond what western powers have done in decades. That said, ultimately a lot of the damage doesn't come just from direct deaths. When coalition forces trashed most of Fallujah, they contributed to a huge refugee crisis and a destabilization of the country that ultimately led to a significant number of civilian deaths. Thankfully for the Ukrainians, those that are able to escape the conflict should be able to get supports from their country and their neighbors after fleeing, which should hopefully reduce the knock on effects of Russia's actions.

Fair enough. The USA is also responsible (at least indirectly and in part) for the destabilization in the region, which resulted in hundreds of thousands of deaths. Although, once again, maybe you can argue there's a difference there with intent. Saudi Arabia, Iran, Russia, etc... also all played a major role in ensuring that the US installed Iraqi government would fail and the area would descend into madness.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

Whataboutism is so infuriating....it minimalizes the topic of discussion. To the benefit of the subject of that discussion.

It lets Russia off the hook, which isn't surprising, since it is a classic Soviet logical fallacy.

Russia, and those that enable this war in any way, shape, or form, deserve nothing but the utmost scorn and disgust.

Until Russia has a moment of national contrition similar to Germany after World War 2, they shouldn't get to be part of global civilized society. Because either overtly or by silence, they enable these atrocities.

How can you judge the scale of the atrocities they're committing other than by comparing them to other countries/situations?

I guess it depends on your perspective. If you think that pretty much all war is awful and basically any war of aggression is a war crime, comparing Russian atrocities to ones by other countries doesn't minimize or excuse what they're guilty of. Are the Holocaust and German concentration camps any less horrific because of our internment camps? No, not in the slightest.

[IliketoPuck]

Originally Posted by opendoor

How can you judge the scale of the atrocities they're committing other than by comparing them to other countries/situations?

I guess it depends on your perspective. If you think that pretty much all war is awful and basically any war of aggression is a war crime, comparing Russian atrocities to ones by other countries doesn't minimize or excuse what they're guilty of. Are the Holocaust and German concentration camps any less horrific because of our internment camps? No, not in the slightest.

My general perspective is that Western society fails to understand Russia's imperialistic demeanor because we try to rationalize their motives in ways that make sense to us. That's my general take.

But there are certain things that don't require any rationalization or analysis. They are exactly what they are.

I feel quite comfortable saying the Russian army, supported by the Russian population (either overtly or by their damning silence), perpetuate a culture that normalizes, embraces, celebrates, or worst of all is indifferent to, the most heinous crimes that I've ever seen, on a scale that is difficult to comprehend.

War is horrific, without question, it is horrific everywhere, at all times.

But a whataboutism of "well all armies do it so...." minimalizes current events unfolding in real time. Scale doesn't really matter here. A whole country has been destroyed before our eyes in the last two months. Humanity has never had such a front row seat to the horrors of war than what we are witnessing now. And the army participating on one side is known for ruthless brutalism.

The time for "understanding" is well past. Given their druthers, the Russians would see this type of liberation performed on all former USSR satellite states.

Until Russia and it's people demand better from themselves and their leaders, they deserve nothing but derision.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

Whataboutism is so infuriating....it minimalizes the topic of discussion. To the benefit of the subject of that discussion.

It lets Russia off the hook, which isn't surprising, since it is a classic Soviet logical fallacy.

Russia, and those that enable this war in any way, shape, or form, deserve nothing but the utmost scorn and disgust.

Until Russia has a moment of national contrition similar to Germany after World War 2, they shouldn't get to be part of global civilized society. Because either overtly or by silence, they enable these atrocities.

Infuriating?

When you compare Russia's crimes to what the US did in Iraq, how does it minimize Russia's crimes? I'd say it does the opposite and highlights how heinous they are. When you recall the historic behavior of Russian troops and command for most of the 20th century, the picture is pretty disgusting. This is a military with a long tradition of horrific rape, pillage, deportation and murder of civilians. Not to mention the treatment of enemy combatants either.

Russia's government and military are thoroughly disgusting and abhorrent entities.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by FlameOn

For sure. Too bad costal LNG terminals and pipelines can't just spring up overnight.

Theoretically, I wonder how long it would take to get it done if they went balls to the walls to get it done.

Going at current consumption rates, Canada only has natural gas for another 18 years, so sooner or later, everyone is going to be looking for other options.

Logically, Norway would be the better option. They are a heck of a lot closer and have comparable reserves to Canada. When you factor in consumption rate and compare it to reserves, Norway is a way better option.

[IliketoPuck]

I agree, they are disgusting.

It minimalizes things by shifting the discussion inevitably to something that isn't relevant to the current events.

Well the US was sorta bad too, but only like 5% as bad so, you know... Or what about the time the Germans were really bad in the 40's, yea that's like 100% level bad....

Current events are exactly what they are. They need to be treated with a laser focus.

Russia needs to be held accountable. Refusing to be distracted from that is what will be required for the West to remain united behind Ukraine.

[CroFlames]

I don't think anyone (in this thread, anyway) are saying "Hey, Russia's not so bad - look what the US did!"

It's more of "When the US invaded Iraq, civilian casualties were minimal compared to what Russia is doing in Ukraine"

[IliketoPuck]

What ends up happening though is that we all go off on a tangent and start debating about a bunch of stuff that isn't relevant.

That's why whataboutism is infuriating. The end result is to distract deflect and minimize the original discussion.

Maybe I've just reached a point generally where I'm overly sensitive to it and wanted to say something. Several of my friends lately have been resorting to using it to "prove" points, and it just drives me insane.

And then on top of it the recent news coming out of Ukraine the last few weeks is just awful. And I don't want Russia to get even the slightest bit of reprieve.

TL;DR Slava Ukraine.

[Icantwhisper]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

I don't think anyone (in this thread, anyway) are saying "Hey, Russia's not so bad - look what the US did!"

It's more of "When the US invaded Iraq, civilian casualties were minimal compared to what Russia is doing in Ukraine"

200,000 for reference