Man dies after being tasered in Vancouver Airport

Originally Posted by Ford Prefect

Aside from the whole role of the RCMP and the Taser, the paramedic response is something else that needs to be looked at in this case. The paramedics themselves didn't do anything wrong, but from of the testimony I've read it sounds like some of the managers responsible for the airport's response made bad decisions at best. It sounds like the paramedics wanted to respond a lot sooner than they did, but weren't allowed to by their superiors.

Maybe they did. But if this guy was in this state, he was well on his way to dying regardless of whether paramedics were standing next to him or an hour away.

[Ford Prefect]

Originally Posted by Bent Wookie

Maybe they did. But if this guy was in this state, he was well on his way to dying regardless of whether paramedics were standing next to him or an hour away.

Unless the paramedics had been able to respond before the RCMP even arrived on scene and were able to defuse the situation through negotiation. Paramedics are pretty good at that ... they deal with drunks, addicts, domestics disputes, etc all the time. Of course they would have needed an interpreter for this, which leads to another area that the airport screwed up in. I'm not trying to exonerate the police here ... but they were only the final link in a complete systemic meltdown and don't deserve the entire burden of blame. There's plenty of blame to go around to all quarters on this one.

[Bagor]

According to various reports and the Criminal Justice Branch Report (whose timeline of events has since been proven to be disturbingly flawed, but then again it is probably based on officers statements alone):

Officers arrived at 01:25
Paramedics dispatched at 01:33 and arrived at 01:43
ALS paramedics a few moments later.

So somewhere within that 18 minute time period he died.

Originally Posted by Bent Wookie

Maybe they did. But if this guy was in this state, he was well on his way to dying regardless of whether paramedics were standing next to him or an hour away.

I don't understand your assumption here? In what state? Are you suggesting this death was unpreventable and inevitable? Not having a go. Just confused by what you're getting at.

Maybe they could have helped in a small way like told the cops to get their knee off his shoulder/neck area for the 45 seconds before he died thus enabling him to breathe more freely?

Maybe they could have actually monitored the person?

Administer oxygen? Which when they arrived wasn't been done although the firefighters were already there and there was oxygen at hand.

Paramedic at the scene later complained to his supervisors about the actions/inactions of the firefighters.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Bent Wookie

I would suggest the mortality rate for a taser is less then regular physical restraint- the ole dog pile as some have suggested. I am sure if he was dogpiled and suffered a broken ribs people wpuld be asking why they didn't use tasers.

Really?? Non-excessive physical restraint should have a virtually non-existent mortality rate. If you're including incidents where multiple officers pile on an individual for an extended period of time then maybe the rates are comparable, but that's hardly something that should be seen as an acceptable option.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Ford Prefect

Unless the paramedics had been able to respond before the RCMP even arrived on scene and were able to defuse the situation through negotiation. Paramedics are pretty good at that ... they deal with drunks, addicts, domestics disputes, etc all the time. Of course they would have needed an interpreter for this, which leads to another area that the airport screwed up in. I'm not trying to exonerate the police here ... but they were only the final link in a complete systemic meltdown and don't deserve the entire burden of blame. There's plenty of blame to go around to all quarters on this one.

Why did the airport screwup by not having a polish interpreter? Where is the personal accountability with people? Yes, the man did not deserve to die, but come on, how much crap do we need in palce to facilitate every person that enters the airport? I am alread tired of paying $150 in airport fees and taxes on every ticket I purchase.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by valo403

Really?? Non-excessive physical restraint should have a virtually non-existent mortality rate. If you're including incidents where multiple officers pile on an individual for an extended period of time then maybe the rates are comparable, but that's hardly something that should be seen as an acceptable option.

Dude, people die in all kinds of restraints while in police custody including just being handcuffed in the front. It is usually not the restraint that kills them but some other medical issue that is also usually a factor in their arrest.

[Ford Prefect]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Why did the airport screwup by not having a polish interpreter? Where is the personal accountability with people? Yes, the man did not deserve to die, but come on, how much crap do we need in palce to facilitate every person that enters the airport? I am alread tired of paying $150 in airport fees and taxes on every ticket I purchase.

I do not think it is unreasonable to expect that a major international airport should, as a matter of course, have interpreters available for the major languages that might be used by travelers using that airport. If I were to travel to Warsaw, I'd expect their airport to have an English interpreter available should I need one. Polish is not as common a language as English to be sure, but neither is it Swahili.

I'm not even sure what we're debating or why though anymore. I sense you wish to blame only the dead immigrant, and not entertain the possibility that others might be at fault as well. Certainly the Polish chap didn't do himself any favours, but I don't see where his actions warranted the outcome he received.

[metallicat]

Airports should have an interpreter for every single language, available at every second of the day. Just put them in a room in case they're needed. Even in this economy. If you can't find an interpreter, AT LEAST have an English-whatever language dictionary handy.

There is a whole lot of people posting in this thread who have very little knowledge of in-custody deaths including the use of force models used by police, restraint techniques, and medical issues related to drugs, alcohol, mental state (short or long term), response by police, response by paramedics.

If you intent to question these actions, do a little research first.

How this reared its ugly head again was the premise that one officer wasn't truthful and/or is flat out lying. Fair enough. That is certainly a possibility. If he is, then he should receive whatever punishment is due.

Originally Posted by valo403

Really?? Non-excessive physical restraint should have a virtually non-existent mortality rate. If you're including incidents where multiple officers pile on an individual for an extended period of time then maybe the rates are comparable, but that's hardly something that should be seen as an acceptable option.

Completely untrue.

Originally Posted by Bagor

I don't understand your assumption here? In what state? Are you suggesting this death was unpreventable and inevitable? Not having a go. Just confused by what you're getting at.

Quite possibly. But to be clear, it was a combination of his physical and mental state with police interdiction- taser or otherwise, that certainly could have made his death inevitable. Fact remains, police assistance was necessary there. No one can deny that. And as someone mentioned, I don't think asking him politely to 'calm down' would have worked.

Originally Posted by Bagor

Maybe they could have helped in a small way like told the cops to get their knee off his shoulder/neck area for the 45 seconds before he died thus enabling him to breathe more freely?

A definite possibility unless he continued to combative.

Originally Posted by Bagor

Maybe they could have actually monitored the person?

Agreed there.

Originally Posted by Bagor

Administer oxygen? Which when they arrived wasn't been done although the firefighters were already there and there was oxygen at hand.

I assume you mean artificial resuscitation? Because I am pretty sure police don't carry oxygen.

Originally Posted by Bagor

Paramedic at the scene later complained to his supervisors about the actions/inactions of the firefighters.

Which again leads me to believe there is a lot more to this story.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by Bent Wookie

I assume you mean artificial resuscitation? Because I am pretty sure police don't carry oxygen.

No, I mean oxygen. Firefighters with oxygen equipment were already on hand when the paramedics arrived on scene.

No oxygen was administered prior to death, or indeed no effort was made at CPR until the paramedics turned the man over, assessed his condition and concluded that he was dead. I can only assume this is because as the cops mentioned in their statement that his pulse and breathing was normal.

Statements from the firefighters as to why they didn't administer any oxygen or treat the man will be interesting no doubt.

And where you might think the death was inevitable that we will never know. I beg to differ. But we can agree to disagree.

What IMO appears evident here however is that there was severe incompetence and neglect in monitoring and treating the individual post taser. It's these incompetencies and inactions that will always leave the "what if" question open regarding whether or not his life could have been saved.

Sorry to prolong the point but that an office can claim an individual was in the recovery position and alive whereas a paramedic claims he was face down, cuffed and dead concerns me. I have little doubt the judge will address these concerns and the inaccuracies and contradictions in statements in his conclusions.

Originally Posted by Bagor

What IMO appears evident here however is that there was severe incompetence and neglect in monitoring and treating the individual post taser. It's these incompetencies and inactions that will always leave the "what if" question open regarding whether or not his life could have been saved.

Sorry to prolong the point but that an office can claim an individual was in the recovery position and alive whereas a paramedic claims he was face down, cuffed and dead concerns me. I have little doubt the judge will address these concerns and the inaccuracies and contradictions in statements in his conclusions.

That we can agree on.

[Burninator]

RCMP 'not justified' in using Taser on Robert Dziekanski: Report

The commissioner of the public inquiry into the 2007 Tasering and death of Polish immigrant Robert Dziekanski says the RCMP officers' "shameful conduct" was "not justified."

Read more: http://www.calgaryherald.com/RCMP+ju...#ixzz0rETw6Dfj

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by Burninator

RCMP 'not justified' in using Taser on Robert Dziekanski: Report

Read more: http://www.calgaryherald.com/RCMP+ju...#ixzz0rETw6Dfj

"The initial claims by all four officers that they wrestled Mr. Dziekanski to the ground were untrue," said the report.

"In my view they were deliberate misrepresentations, made for the purpose of justifying their actions."

WHAT??? Cops lie?

[jayswin]

Wow, interesting.