[GT] Garbage Bag Day - Player Availability starts at 10:15 am

[CGY12]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I'd be all for it. I am not a Darryl Sutter hater, but I recognize that this market can't have a coach that makes it undesirable for players to be here. In isolation, it usually isn't a big deal, but it's on top of everything else that smaller markets and Canadian teams have to overcome.

This x100000. We aren't the Rangers, the Blackhawks, the Knights, the Kings, etc. All factors considered, when trying to create an appealing market to good players of all ages, whether its UFAs or young players, to sign or resign, we have to be conscious of perception/opportunity. Unfortunately as a cold, high tax, bad home arena franchise, the org needs to do everything it can to create an appealing atmosphere, and Darryl didn't do that (whether you think its warranted or not).

[Inglewood Jack]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I'd be all for it. I am not a Darryl Sutter hater, but I recognize that this market can't have a coach that makes it undesirable for players to be here. In isolation, it usually isn't a big deal, but it's on top of everything else that smaller markets and Canadian teams have to overcome.

That’s what I don’t get about the “boot everyone except those who want to be here” opinions. Imagine that you have a company that’s not very successful, is located in an undesirable place, and has difficult, inflexible management. How many of the best and brightest are lining up to get into that situation?

[Toonage]

If what has been reported is true, and Sutter is owed $8M, I can pretty much guarantee you ownership isn't going right out and hiring another high priced coach if they let him go. Love would make an awful lot of sense in that situation.

[Vinny01]

I think the organization needs to take a one-step back two-step forward approach with the roster and be prepared for another down year (maybe) next year and move on from guys who have 1 year left and do not want to sign long term. If that means trading 2 of our top 3 centers and a top 3 Dman then so be it.

It would be a massive mistake to treat these guys like own rentals and walk them to free agency. I also think they need to avoid anymore huge deals for players in their 30’s so I am not thrilled with an 8 year deal over $9M per for Lindholm.

I wouldn’t worry about extending Tanev, Zadorov, or Kylington before the season and see how next year goes. If the season goes poorly they become rental options and if it goes well they are guys I would risk losing for nothing or extending. Hanifin would be in the extend or trade situation that would need to be resolved in the summer. He is too valuable to walk for nothing. Lindholm is in the same scenario and it feels like he wants out so I am currently assuming he is gone. If Backlund wants out the accommodate it. I am not as firm in my belief he needs to be resolved this summer but cashing in on a good season makes sense. Toffoli to me is in a unique spot. A 3 year extension at $6M or 4 years at $5.5M is something I could live with and would consider him a strong option to get the C if that happens. If he wants a deal over 5 years or over $7M then I think they should sell high.

I think the goal is to rebuild Markstrom’s value with the goal of moving him in-season or in the offseason of 24. If Wolf wins the Calder cup this year if might make more sense to move Vladar this summer or see if a team will give value for Markstrom.

If the Flames move 2 of their top 3 centers in the summer the options will be slim. Perhaps they get a center in return? Dube could shift back to the position full time? They could see what short term UFA deals for guys like O’Rielly or Monahan would cost? Zary could get a look? The result could be another down year but the 16th pick this year will be a good prospect, Coronato, Pelletier, Wolf, Zary are all knocking on the door. Get the right young assets for Lindholm and Backlund this team will be armed with assets to pounce on the next young star wanting out.

TLDR I think this team needs to consider next year being a down year so they can have the assets to avoid this being several painful years and with the right moves they can turn things around quickly with the pieces they have

[NegativeSpace]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

I think the organization needs to take a one-step back two-step forward approach with the roster and be prepared for another down year (maybe) next year and move on from guys who have 1 year left and do not want to sign long term. If that means trading 2 of our top 3 centers and a top 3 Dman then so be it.

It would be a massive mistake to treat these guys like own rentals and walk them to free agency. I also think they need to avoid anymore huge deals for players in their 30’s so I am not thrilled with an 8 year deal over $9M per for Lindholm.

I wouldn’t worry about extending Tanev, Zadorov, or Kylington before the season and see how next year goes. If the season goes poorly they become rental options and if it goes well they are guys I would risk losing for nothing or extending. Hanifin would be in the extend or trade situation that would need to be resolved in the summer. He is too valuable to walk for nothing. Lindholm is in the same scenario and it feels like he wants out so I am currently assuming he is gone. If Backlund wants out the accommodate it. I am not as firm in my belief he needs to be resolved this summer but cashing in on a good season makes sense. Toffoli to me is in a unique spot. A 3 year extension at $6M or 4 years at $5.5M is something I could live with and would consider him a strong option to get the C if that happens. If he wants a deal over 5 years or over $7M then I think they should sell high.

I think the goal is to rebuild Markstrom’s value with the goal of moving him in-season or in the offseason of 24. If Wolf wins the Calder cup this year if might make more sense to move Vladar this summer or see if a team will give value for Markstrom.

If the Flames move 2 of their top 3 centers in the summer the options will be slim. Perhaps they get a center in return? Dube could shift back to the position full time? They could see what short term UFA deals for guys like O’Rielly or Monahan would cost? Zary could get a look? The result could be another down year but the 16th pick this year will be a good prospect, Coronato, Pelletier, Wolf, Zary are all knocking on the door. Get the right young assets for Lindholm and Backlund this team will be armed with assets to pounce on the next young star wanting out.

TLDR I think this team needs to consider next year being a down year so they can have the assets to avoid this being several painful years and with the right moves they can turn things around quickly with the pieces they have

I agree that they should take the Lindholm and Backlund pressers as an indication that a retool is needed. A retool has centre depth of Kadri, Dube, Ruzy, and Zary, unless they get NHL ready back in a trade. I'm not sure we're competing for a playoff spot with those centres.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by NegativeSpace

I agree that they should take the Lindholm and Backlund pressers as an indication that a retool is needed. A retool has centre depth of Kadri, Dube, Ruzy, and Zary, unless they get NHL ready back in a trade. I'm not sure we're competing for a playoff spot with those centres.

It definitely depends on the type of return they get and if it is pure futures it is hard to see the team doing that well. Realistically though if Markstrom bounces back along with Kadri, Huberdeau, Mangiapane then they might not be any worse off than last year especially if they inject some youth into the lineup. The most important thing is they may have cap flexibility and a much healthier asset base to make moves now or build for later.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

Lmao go look at his history as coach.

What did he say all season and the players? Had trouble hearing him?

Hard for people to come ti grips with the fact he's a outdated coach who doesn't belong anymore.

I think you'd do better just sticking with what is fact when criticizing the guy.

There's lots there!

But to take a Sutter press clipping about just getting in and assuming that means he has a low bar and just shoots for making it is such a huge leap that you're going to get push back.

Same as treating players like crap. We don't know that. Don't assume and start from that point as fact.

[D as in David]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

I think the organization needs to take a one-step back two-step forward approach with the roster and be prepared for another down year (maybe) next year and move on from guys who have 1 year left and do not want to sign long term. If that means trading 2 of our top 3 centers and a top 3 Dman then so be it.

It would be a massive mistake to treat these guys like own rentals and walk them to free agency. I also think they need to avoid anymore huge deals for players in their 30’s so I am not thrilled with an 8 year deal over $9M per for Lindholm.

I wouldn’t worry about extending Tanev, Zadorov, or Kylington before the season and see how next year goes. If the season goes poorly they become rental options and if it goes well they are guys I would risk losing for nothing or extending. Hanifin would be in the extend or trade situation that would need to be resolved in the summer. He is too valuable to walk for nothing. Lindholm is in the same scenario and it feels like he wants out so I am currently assuming he is gone. If Backlund wants out the accommodate it. I am not as firm in my belief he needs to be resolved this summer but cashing in on a good season makes sense. Toffoli to me is in a unique spot. A 3 year extension at $6M or 4 years at $5.5M is something I could live with and would consider him a strong option to get the C if that happens. If he wants a deal over 5 years or over $7M then I think they should sell high.

I think the goal is to rebuild Markstrom’s value with the goal of moving him in-season or in the offseason of 24. If Wolf wins the Calder cup this year if might make more sense to move Vladar this summer or see if a team will give value for Markstrom.

If the Flames move 2 of their top 3 centers in the summer the options will be slim. Perhaps they get a center in return? Dube could shift back to the position full time? They could see what short term UFA deals for guys like O’Rielly or Monahan would cost? Zary could get a look? The result could be another down year but the 16th pick this year will be a good prospect, Coronato, Pelletier, Wolf, Zary are all knocking on the door. Get the right young assets for Lindholm and Backlund this team will be armed with assets to pounce on the next young star wanting out.

TLDR I think this team needs to consider next year being a down year so they can have the assets to avoid this being several painful years and with the right moves they can turn things around quickly with the pieces they have

Even before the disappointing end to this season, our best hopes for Backlund was that he would want to be extended with a hometown discount. That clearly doesn't seem to be an option. If you're looking to trade both Lindholm and Backlund, you'd ideally like to get at least one prospect centre with potential top 6 upside as waiting for future draft picks to fill that role would likely put this organization in the wastelands for a while.

I'd also like to see the Flames shed cap in order to see if they can garner a good prospect or two by selling that cap space. Not sure if they can do that this off-season.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by CF84

No.

Backlund was great except for the final push for the playoffs when he became a turnover machine. My problems with Backlund have always been twofold. The first is he would not be worth a damn for the first half of the year, this season he nipped that on the bud and was excellent for 95% of the year. My biggest knock on the guy though is when the pressure hits his game goes to ####. He got owned in the Colorado series. He got owned last year in the Oilers series. He was a turnover machine down the stretch this year. I get Backlund has been here a long time and there is a lot of sentimental attachment to him but I don't see him as a guy that you win when the pressure is on. The Flames should absolutely sell high on him this offseason, preferably at the draft.

[All In Good Time]

Originally Posted by Bingo

……But to take a Sutter press clipping about just getting in and assuming that means he has a low bar and just shoots for making it is such a huge leap that you're going to get push back……

It also should be pointed out that, even though this was a “goal post moving” follow up post…..

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

That's what I said his message is just try to make it it's why be brings up the minnumum points it takes to get it in.

The style of hockey trying to win 1-0 and 2-1 does that just stick around in close games and hope a low percentage shot squeaks in.

I don’t see the problem really. This year, it was a pretty good guess that we weren’t gonna out score many in the conference, so, we better be tight defensively. This sounds like 1-0 and 2-1 wins are a bad thing. A win is a win

I’d be over the moon if we got 164 regular season points and 16 playoff wins 2-1 or 1-0

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by All In Good Time

It also should be pointed out that, even though this was a “goal post moving” follow up post…..




I don’t see the problem really. This year, it was a pretty good guess that we weren’t gonna out score many in the conference, so, we better be tight defensively. This sounds like 1-0 and 2-1 wins are a bad thing. A win is a win

I’d be over the moon if we got 164 regular season points and 16 playoff wins 2-1 or 1-0

But trying to win 2-1 (assuming that is in fact the case), is not the same as having a low bar to just try and get in the playoffs. No one has a low bar, it's just a silly thing to say.

[flamesgod]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

That's what I said his message is just try to make it it's why be brings up the minnumum points it takes to get it in.

The style of hockey trying to win 1-0 and 2-1 does that just stick around in close games and hope a low percentage shot squeaks in.

So the team averaged over 3 goals a game despite Sutters best effort to keep goals for at 1 or 2? He was asked point blank, if you have a 1 goal lead do you try lock it down defensively or what’s the thought process there? He said, maybe 10 years ago you try and lock it down, but now it’s about trying to get the next one.

You don’t have to like Sutter, but your takes on the subject are ridiculous.

[All In Good Time]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

But trying to win 2-1 (assuming that is in fact the case), is not the same as having a low bar to just try and get in the playoffs. No one has a low bar, it's just a silly thing to say.

Absolutely
That’s what I pointed out at first
Then the reply about 2-1 games was made

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by flamesgod

So the team averaged over 3 goals a game despite Sutters best effort to keep goals for at 1 or 2? He was asked point blank, if you have a 1 goal lead do you try lock it down defensively or what’s the thought process there? He said, maybe 10 years ago you try and lock it down, but now it’s about trying to get the next one.

You don’t have to like Sutter, but your takes on the subject are ridiculous.

I can see how people who watch the Flames press to tie 2-2 then stop pressing and trust the process may not see them looking like their first priority is getting the next one


Sutter may not be telling them not to score. But I can see how one may think he is telling them to ring it hard around the boards, get it back to the D, and get shots from the point and get garbage goals

[flamesgod]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

I can see how people who watch the Flames press to tie 2-2 then stop pressing and trust the process may not see them looking like their first priority is getting the next one


Sutter may not be telling them not to score. But I can see how one may think he is telling them to ring it hard around the boards, get it back to the D, and get shots from the point and get garbage goals

You don’t average over 3 goals a game by trying to win 1-0 or 2-1. Like I said, you don’t have to like Sutter but the narratives he is constantly trying to run are ridiculous.

[Paulie Walnuts]

So tell me how being having the most perimeter shots and the bottom of the league in rush chances cross ice plays is pressing to keep scoring?

Or is rush in shoot ring around the boards shoot get the puck frozen and start again a way to slow the game down?

That isn't pace to me that's a defensive strategy to keep the opposition as far away from your net as possible and try to grind a goal in.

We may not be locking it down but we also aren't opening it up to score the next goal.

People are caught up in the one big year from last season and not looking at his coaching career known to stifle teams and his own team by playing this way.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

So tell me how being having the most perimeter shots and the bottom of the league in rush chances cross ice plays is pressing to keep scoring?

Or is rush in shoot ring around the boards shoot get the puck frozen and start again a way to slow the game down?

That isn't pace to me that's a defensive strategy to keep the opposition as far away from your net as possible and try to grind a goal in.

We may not be locking it down but we also aren't opening it up to score the next goal.

People are caught up in the one big year from last season and not looking at his coaching career known to stifle teams and his own team by playing this way.

Now you're moving the goalposts. You claimed that he has a low bar and is just trying to get into the playoffs, and that is what you got challenged on, because it's silly.

No one is debating that he preaches defensively-sound hockey.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Now you're moving the goalposts. You claimed that he has a low bar and is just trying to get into the playoffs, and that is what you got challenged on, because it's silly.

No one is debating that he preaches defensively-sound hockey.

Playing that way usually results in medicore results does it not?

He always talks about just making the playoffs. Everyone here all season talked about how he is some magical coach that doesn't finish high in the standings but just get in and his teams win in the playoffs.

When he came here he talked about unrealistic goals that the team and media had for the team.

Why does he always bring up the point totals for the 8th place team?

[All In Good Time]

Originally Posted by topfiverecords

He does. Which is why I and many others don’t bother anymore.

Damn!!!

[flamesgod]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

Playing that way usually results in medicore results does it not?

He always talks about just making the playoffs. Everyone here all season talked about how he is some magical coach that doesn't finish high in the standings but just get in and his teams win in the playoffs.

When he came here he talked about unrealistic goals that the team and media had for the team.

Why does he always bring up the point totals for the 8th place team?

Because he purposely tries to build up the us vs the world narrative in the locker room. Has nothing to do with what he actually thinks of the team.

I’ll address the other stuff later, I’m busy right now.