Solar power systems for the home

[the-rasta-masta]

Originally Posted by SeeGeeWhy

Generously assuming no degradation on the panels for 20 years at that production rate, that's a lifetime production of 282,060kWh at a unit price of 16.5 cents/kWh. Over 3x what I was paying on an energy basis at the time, and still a good 50% higher than today's bum touching offer.

Again, what am I getting wrong about my math? Why is everyone saying this crap is cheap? It is NOT CHEAP.

It looks like they were factoring in some form of net new appliance into your quote. Were you considering a heat pump/electric vehicle/hot tub or any other new appliance at the time you got the quote? Only other thing I could think of is that you are looking at a 12 month period now that has way less consumption compared to what you were using in 2022 but that seems less likely unless you got out of the growop or bitcoin mining business…

You are right that you’d have never had that approved unless any of the above is correct.

On your previous post, areas of your math I’d want to examine closer start with the system price you are quoted. Zeno has a door knocking division, did they come to you through that avenue? For example base price I’d quote you for a 14.99kW system would be around $32.6k so I think your quote is high for what you are getting. Even an electrical panel upgrade would only bring that up another $3k.

I’d also look at at least 25 years rather than 20, since the panel warranty these days is 25 years at minimum (newer ones are at 30). I know you’re not building in degradation, but tier 1 panels should still be at 85% at 25 years or they would have been replaced under warranty. Panels should have a lifespan of 35-40 years but using the warranty period is a conservative approach.

Even at your math of comparing a high priced system and getting that 16.5 cents per kWh, you are only comparing that against your fixed rate, so you aren’t factoring in the big portion of your bill that is made the delivery and admin fees. Even at your really low 6 cent fixed rate, I’d bet your levelized cost of electricity (what you are actually paying per kWh) is already around $0.16 to $0.20 per kWh. If your rate was to renew at current rates you’re LCOE is probably closer to $0.20-0.25 per kWH. Yes, distribution and transmission will still exist, but at much lower levels, especially if you can change your habits to skew your electricity use to daytime production hours for any high volume appliance. Even if you were paying that high 16.5 cent cost for your production with your solar investment, you’re not considering the full lifetime of return, and you’re also not factoring in the inflation of electricity rates further through the years. The AUC is forecasting 3.5% annual inflation on electricity rates over the next 25 years. To me, doing a bit of napkin math without the napkin, I think your high priced quote, even with being on a low fixed rate that hasn’t jumped yet, and only looking at things over 20 years, still looks to me like you’re locking in your current rates now with Solar protecting against inevitable increases.

[the-rasta-masta]

Originally Posted by Benched

Just an update on my numbers....a few days from including my May-June bill or I'd have another data point, but oh well:

Average 2023 March-July (pre-solar)
Distro: $26.50
Trans: $23.25
Local: $18.23

Average 2024 March-July (solar)
Distro: $28.35
Trans: $14.65
Local: $9.45

So again I'm still not sure why distribution charge is slightly higher/basically the same, while the other 2 fees drastically dropped.

The fact that the Transmission charge dropped so much - my HUNCH is that the 'consumer' pays that charge. So when you sell to the grid you do not pay transmission fees. Otherwise with the solar I produced last month+my draw, I FAR outpaced my average and it should have been an otherwise expensive month if I paid to push my energy to the grid.

Transmission charge last month: $10.84cents. 262kWh drawn from the grid, 242.5kWh self produced and consumed, 481kWh pushed to the grid.

And using the above math 0.042094/kWh for transmission charge, my 262kWh = $11 and I paid $10.84. Think that's proof you don't pay transmission on pushes.

If we do the same for the distribution charge - I paid $26.93 last month. Using my 262kWh consumed from grid you get $3.41. Then + 30 day fee@0.6479/day = $19.44, so $22.85 total...below what I paid. But if you use the 262kWh consumed from grid + the 481kWh we pushed to the grid you get $9.68. That added up is $29.12...over what I paid. So basically I suspect I'm incorrect here somewhere, either my fee values, or not understanding what is included in that 0.013033/kWh calculation. Requires more digging

Are you away from home during most of your daylight production hours by chance?

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by SeeGeeWhy

Generously assuming no degradation on the panels for 20 years at that production rate, that's a lifetime production of 282,060kWh at a unit price of 16.5 cents/kWh. Over 3x what I was paying on an energy basis at the time, and still a good 50% higher than today's bum touching offer.



Again, what am I getting wrong about my math? Why is everyone saying this crap is cheap? It is NOT CHEAP.

In BC we have cheaper electricity because we pay no transmission or distribution charges. We pay a daily charge of $0.2253 per day (about $12/2 month billing cycle) to be a customer. Then we pay about $0.10/h KWh for the first 1350 KWh, and $0.14 for any after that.

My 10.9 kWh system cost $24,000 and I made 11,900 KWh as there was a lot of smoke cover for July and August. We have much worse solar resources in BC than you guys do as well. Assuming usual degradation of about 15% over 20 years gives me about 10¢/kwh. Essentially, I've locked in at today's rate for 20 years.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by SeeGeeWhy

Generously assuming no degradation on the panels for 20 years at that production rate, that's a lifetime production of 282,060kWh at a unit price of 16.5 cents/kWh. Over 3x what I was paying on an energy basis at the time, and still a good 50% higher than today's bum touching offer.

Again, what am I getting wrong about my math? Why is everyone saying this crap is cheap? It is NOT CHEAP.

You can currently sell back to the grid at ~30 cents/kWh. You can also sell carbon credits.

Because the government is giving you an interest free loan, the absolute cost of the system is effectively way lower than your sticker price.

Also, initial install is going to be way more expensive than future panel/inverter replacement, so for your second panel lifespan (~25 years) your costs drop astronomically.

For the initial panel install, the math for most people up here reaches payout during the panel lifespan, even accounting for 85% degradation over 25 years. Would you be better throwing the money at the S&P financially? Yes. Is there some component of doing your part to solve a huge problem? I think so.

More importantly, it's a cool roof toy where you can stare at the app all day and check your stats.

[Benched]

Originally Posted by the-rasta-masta

Are you away from home during most of your daylight production hours by chance?

Yeah. We work from home a couple times a week, but generally work a 9-5 away from the home

[Benched]

Just an update, found an Enmax newer document that updated their formula:

Distribution: 0.76373/day + 0.015362/kWh (up from previous cost)
Transmission: 0.041392/kWh (down from previous cost)

Used the updated formula and all my math works.

You do NOT pay distribution or transmission charges on electricity you push to the grid.

[indes]

Originally Posted by Bill Bumface

You can currently sell back to the grid at ~30 cents/kWh. You can also sell carbon credits.



Because the government is giving you an interest free loan, the absolute cost of the system is effectively way lower than your sticker price.



Also, initial install is going to be way more expensive than future panel/inverter replacement, so for your second panel lifespan (~25 years) your costs drop astronomically.



For the initial panel install, the math for most people up here reaches payout during the panel lifespan, even accounting for 85% degradation over 25 years. Would you be better throwing the money at the S&P financially? Yes. Is there some component of doing your part to solve a huge problem? I think so.



More importantly, it's a cool roof toy where you can stare at the app all day and check your stats.

I have a neighbor putting one in, and he said he will basically break even over 20 years...but had to put up half the cost.

So he's in for I think he said 13k up front, and will make that money back in 10 years and the payments in another 10. If I could get the whole thing financed at 0 then it would make sense to me, but I can't justify shelling out 13k just to break even 20 years from now.

Environmentally and financially I imagine I would be better off selling a vehicle and adding the 13k up front +13k financing to buy an electric one.

[Slanter]

Originally Posted by indes

Environmentally and financially I imagine I would be better off selling a vehicle and adding the 13k up front +13k financing to buy an electric one.

Not really in Cgy, where you'd essentially be charging your vehicle on fossil fuel derived electricity. The grid had been on a steady trend towards greener energy, but that might have tapered off with changes in UCP policy. Haven't looked in the last year.

But I crunched the numbers on this a year ago when I went with a PHEV, heat pump, and solar. Without the solar, the EV and heat pump didn't make much sense from a carbon emissions stand point.

[Julio]

In the last 10 years EVs in Alberta have gone to being (mostly) 'coal burning' to (mostly) 'nat gas burning'. Better for sure, but not the game changer carbon wise that they are other places.

[the-rasta-masta]

Originally Posted by Benched

Yeah. We work from home a couple times a week, but generally work a 9-5 away from the home

You’re probably aware of this but just wanted to share in case you weren’t. If you’re able to skew some electricity use of your high consumption appliances more to the production hours you’ll see a big effect on lowering the variable components of the delivery fees. It’s always better to use your own electricity production if able, even before selling back for the credit since your only selling at the fixed rates. If a lot of your electricity use is in non production hours, you’re paying the full fees for that electricity and it’s only a portion of it being offset by what you sold for credit at the fixed rate.

If you can try to use your washer/dryer/dishwasher etc… during daylight production hours, you’ll see the bigger drop in those delivery fees that you are looking for. Most dishwashers have the 4 hour delay setting so you can put that on as you’re leaving in the morning, and washer/dryers with wifi options are huge for benefitting from solar, or just waiting to do laundry when you’re working from home or weekends.

[GGG]

What did you guys do with your roofs for installing solar panels? I need new shingles and want to be solar ready.

Also if you sell your house do the solar loans follow you or the house?

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by GGG

What did you guys do with your roofs for installing solar panels? I need new shingles and want to be solar ready.

Also if you sell your house do the solar loans follow you or the house?

For the first question, the biggest one is vent relocations. They offer risers that can put panels above vents, but I was uncertain how that would affect vent performance and aesthetics so I had some vents relocated to the north side, and others replaced with a ridge vent.

Great question on the second point. But screw moving. I'm just going to camp out in place for life.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by GGG

What did you guys do with your roofs for installing solar panels? I need new shingles and want to be solar ready.

Also if you sell your house do the solar loans follow you or the house?

Originally Posted by Bill Bumface

For the first question, the biggest one is vent relocations. They offer risers that can put panels above vents, but I was uncertain how that would affect vent performance and aesthetics so I had some vents relocated to the north side, and others replaced with a ridge vent.

Great question on the second point. But screw moving. I'm just going to camp out in place for life.

Assuming it is the federal loan program the loan moves with you. It is like a conventional car loan or personal loan. If it is the city program where the loan is tied to the house and is paid through property tax that would transfer over to the new owner. The buyer could obviously structure the purchase so that the seller has to pay off the loan or offer a lower purchase price offsetting the loan amount or whatever.

[The Fisher Account]

Originally Posted by Bill Bumface

Because the government is giving you an interest free loan, the absolute cost of the system is effectively way lower than your sticker price.

Can you still get an interest free loan for solar panels?

[Benched]

Originally Posted by the-rasta-masta

You’re probably aware of this but just wanted to share in case you weren’t. If you’re able to skew some electricity use of your high consumption appliances more to the production hours you’ll see a big effect on lowering the variable components of the delivery fees. It’s always better to use your own electricity production if able, even before selling back for the credit since your only selling at the fixed rates. If a lot of your electricity use is in non production hours, you’re paying the full fees for that electricity and it’s only a portion of it being offset by what you sold for credit at the fixed rate.

If you can try to use your washer/dryer/dishwasher etc… during daylight production hours, you’ll see the bigger drop in those delivery fees that you are looking for. Most dishwashers have the 4 hour delay setting so you can put that on as you’re leaving in the morning, and washer/dryers with wifi options are huge for benefitting from solar, or just waiting to do laundry when you’re working from home or weekends.

Makes sense. We know it logically, but haven't been concerned enough to schedule our activities around it.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by The Fisher Account

Can you still get an interest free loan for solar panels?

Yes, the program is still going:

https://natural-resources.canada.ca/...mes-loan/24286

[Torture]

Originally Posted by GGG

What did you guys do with your roofs for installing solar panels? I need new shingles and want to be solar ready.

Also if you sell your house do the solar loans follow you or the house?

We did our roof before solar (roof probably could have been procrastinated on for a few more years but didn't make sense to put panels on an old roof and then take them off).

We told them we were getting panels, they asked where, and made sure that they kept the new vents away from where the panels would be. Easy.

[FlameOn]

Just doing some research before my install in a couple of months.

What are you guys using for your Solar Club and Carbon Credit vendors? Most of the Solar Clubs appear to be UtilityNet so does it really matter between something like Spot Power vs. Acorn Energy vs. Park Power? They both offer 3% cash back on purchased power + do the whole 30c sell/10.75c buy deal.

For carbon credits it looks like the choices are Solar Offset/Rewatt/Re(Source). Looks like Rewatt and Resource have monitoring so you don't have to submit bills like with Solar Offset and they take 5% less commission? So why would you go with Solar Offset then? Seems like way less hassle for the other two.

[Torture]

Originally Posted by FlameOn

Just doing some research before my install in a couple of months.

What are you guys using for your Solar Club and Carbon Credit vendors? Most of the Solar Clubs appear to be UtilityNet so does it really matter between something like Spot Power vs. Acorn Energy vs. Park Power? They both offer 3% cash back on purchased power + do the whole 30c sell/10.75c buy deal.

For carbon credits it looks like the choices are Solar Offset/Rewatt/Re(Source). Looks like Rewatt and Resource have monitoring so you don't have to submit bills like with Solar Offset and they take 5% less commission? So why would you go with Solar Offset then? Seems like way less hassle for the other two.

Think they're all pretty similar. We are Enmax for now to preserve our low fixed rate.

[FlameOn]

Originally Posted by Torture

Think they're all pretty similar. We are Enmax for now to preserve our low fixed rate.

Does Enmax issue you a refund cheque if you end up generating more at the end of the year or do the credits just continuously keep rolling over?