Official (Alberta) Oil Discussion Thread

[T@T]

Originally Posted by Johnny199r

It's a bit like Westerners getting upset at poaching in a third world country. We don't want those pretty animinals to disappear, but Joe Blow who has a family of 8 in Rwanda has no means of making money or feeding his family if he doesn't shoot that gorilla, or burn some habitat for farming.

He shouldn't have had so many kids...just sayin!

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

A little bit of climate change is better than a lot of climate change. All efforts at reducing it will be worth it.

Abdication of responsibility to say "derp, hopeless", when there are clearly varying degrees of climate change. It's the basis behind 'pay now or pay later'.

The province can take a bit of a hit now to industry or they can take a huge hit when the province alternates between droughts and floods year to year.

The other aspect, is how can you possibly ask someone else to make the changes you yourself are not willing to make? Hypocritical.

Then make real change.

Give everyone a carbon allowance and allow each individual to spend it. Actually control carbon. paying cash to coal suppliers and taxing everything at a rate that won't change behaviour does nothing.

The Carbon tax in an intelligent royalty structure just comes right out the governments share and does nothing to curb emissions. You should really stop with the hyperbole of droughts and floods alternating every year.

Also the whole every little bit counts is likely untrue as the tipping points on climate change appear to be where we are headed and the little changes do little

[Buster]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Nope I would never contemplate separation.

However at some point the federals are going to have to step in, tell the provinces to stfu on these crucial pipelines and that they will be dealt with at a federal level, and if you keep yammering about it, no equalization payments for you this year young man.

Oh and Quebec, seriously get off of the couch, put down the controller and get a job.

I think that's mostly sentiment getting in the way of practicality.

Alberta would be MUCH better off with close economic ties to the US, instead of Canada.

[CaptainCrunch]

I love the US and Americans, but frankly I don't want to be governed by them, or adopt their culture.

Canada is great, even though we have complete jerks for provinces.

[heep223]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I love the US and Americans, but frankly I don't want to be governed by them, or adopt their culture.

Canada is great, even though we have complete jerks for provinces.

Adopt their culture, ha! We are 95% the same. The 5% is guns.

[stampsx2]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

I don't know if climate change is either real or our fault, frankly I don't really care, as a species we are absurd, we crap where we eat with abandon, there's getting to be as much plastic in the ocean as there are fish, we drive round in absurdly large cars we don't need meanwhile a guy in Mexico who can barely feed his kids grows produce for me so cheap that I let 1/3rd of it go to waste and just throw it away.

None of this is neccersary, gas should cost a fortune, food should be expensive enough that we can't afford to waste it while the guy growing and picking it can live a decent life, most people should have to catch trains or buses, we should be forced to be a less wasteful more frugal people, half the world goes to bed hungry while I have a fridge damn near as big as a small car. My existence is obscene, I don't blame ISIS for hating us, I hate us. We are pigs in the west, if the fear of death is what it takes for us to stop being pigs so be it, I'm happy to go along.

Now let's be realistic for a moment.

It's nice to say this and it works well in beauty pagents but lets be realistic as well. Your average north american works just as hard as your plant picker in the sun. Most of us get up in the morning at 7am warm up our cars in the cold and don't get home from work till 5pm and a lot of times later. Some of us take our office work home with us and others of us work in hot welding shops with no ac or on labourous rigs. Some of work outside in the cold all day on construction sites. Some of us work up north and don't even get to see our families as much as we'd like to. When people come visit a place like Canada they are often surprised how much we work. Maybe we should compare the day of a first world farmer to a third world farmer?

Many first world people started with nothing, worked through a post secondary education and have given up the majority of their lives to have what they have with long hard hours. Are there those that have it easy at work? You bet, and so do those in the tropics waiting on a nice beach for someone to buy a scuba diving course from them or a boat ride.

I'm saying you can't generalize and say all first world people have it easy. Paris Hilton may have it easy but so do kings and queens of second and third world countries.

The better arguement would be is an apple employee in china or coffee plantation farmer paid fairly in a third world country.

I'll agree that too much food is wasted. Restaurants, grocery stores and in homes.

[Fuzz]

Stamps, I think the part you missed in his quote was this:

while the guy growing and picking it can live a decent life

Sure we work hard, but we get a decent lifestyle from it. They don't, and don't have the opportunity to go to post secondary, or in a lot of cases, primary. We get a nice house and cars and vacations for our work, they get to live in a shack.

[Johnny199r]

Originally Posted by stampsx2

Now let's be realistic for a moment.

It's nice to say this and it works well in beauty pagents but lets be realistic as well. Your average north american works just as hard as your plant picker in the sun. Most of us get up in the morning at 7am warm up our cars in the cold and don't get home from work till 5pm and a lot of times later. Some of us take our office work home with us and others of us work in hot welding shops with no ac or on labourous rigs. Some of work outside in the cold all day on construction sites. Some of us work up north and don't even get to see our families as much as we'd like to. When people come visit a place like Canada they are often surprised how much we work. Maybe we should compare the day of a first world farmer to a third world farmer?

Many first world people started with nothing, worked through a post secondary education and have given up the majority of their lives to have what they have with long hard hours. Are there those that have it easy at work? You bet, and so do those in the tropics waiting on a nice beach for someone to buy a scuba diving course from them or a boat ride.

I'm saying you can't generalize and say all first world people have it easy. Paris Hilton may have it easy but so do kings and queens of second and third world countries.

The better arguement would be is an apple employee in china or coffee plantation farmer paid fairly in a third world country.

I'll agree that too much food is wasted. Restaurants, grocery stores and in homes.

I strongly disagree with this.

[Buster]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I love the US and Americans, but frankly I don't want to be governed by them, or adopt their culture.

Canada is great, even though we have complete jerks for provinces.

The US is a diverse place. There really is no "their culture."

Americans get Senators to manage their regional interests by state.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by heep223

Adopt their culture, ha! We are 95% the same. The 5% is guns.

Even if that were true, guns is more than 5%. Gun control seems like the number one domestic political issue down there, while up here 99% don't give a crap. Look at how many people are murdered every year there per capita vs. Canada, a direct result of the gun culture. That alone makes the two countries seem very different to me, and there are many other differences that you dismiss.

I would argue that their corporate culture is more perverse as well, and that their political system has been more corrupted than ours has. Both sides are blatantly bought and paid for, and it's just accepted. Here, it doesn't seem nearly as bad, but perhaps they just hide it better, or try to hide it. Another difference is the republican party itself. If it were a party in Canada, they would be on the fringes and unelectable. Their presidential candidates would be regarded as too extreme for what they believe in, and that's not even counting Trump. In the USA, I would wager 50% of the population votes republican on average. Here, they would be the Right's answer to the Green Party, of that I have no doubt.

Another key difference is that a significant portion of their population vehemently disagrees with universal heath care. They had to be dragged, kicking and screaming, just to get what could be best described as half measure solution, and they still scream and whine about it until they are blue in the face. We are much more accepting of government provided heathcare here, many actually take pride in it (I know, crazy).

They are also far more controlled by the lunatics on the religious right than we are. Look no further than the abortion issue for conformation of that, though there are many other places to look if you want (like the infiltration of their government). I don't even want to get into how badly they treat their poor and homeless people compared to us, especially considering how they seem to regard themselves as a 'christian nation'. Ironically, there is nothing Christ-like about the USA. I would suspect if Christ were real, he would regard them as a modern day Babylon, or worse. They worship money and are hypocritical to the point of being laughable. The bible to them is a system of control, to be used as needed and disregarded when convenient. Canada is much different in that regard, but we still struggle with the religious plague to an extent obviously.

There's many other things as well, but I don't feel like writing an essay on the subject. I think you're glossing over a fairly complex comparison, the two countries are very different IMO.

[Buster]

Their political system is definitely NOT as corrupt as ours.

Canada's Laurentian Elite (AKA, the Ottawa Valley Elite), are far more corrupt/cloistered than anything the US has to offer. At least down there, it's just a dollars/money game in politics. Up here it's far worse. Plus, we have a State Broadcaster which clearly plays a corrupted role in our politics. We have nothing to brag about in this regard.

As for Universal Health Care: Canada may be a case study in how this doesn't work, as much as a case study in how it does. Between bloated costs, poor quality, and public service unions decimating budgets, our health care system is hardly something to brag about. You have to be a relatively fringe player in the US to get worse quality of care than we have here. The Americans get the best health care service in the world. Cut my taxes in half, get me some insurance, and allow me to pay - and your service quality goes WAY up. They have some significant issues to address down there - but if you are employed and insured down there, your quality of healthcare is going to be heads and shoulders above Canada.

[nik-]

naw, our problem in Canada isn't a political elite, it's Quebec and everyone being willing to bend over and grab their ankles to appease their whiny population.

Additionally, Canada Health care is getting worse for sure, but it would be interesting to see how Canada's health care was when we weren't on the border with a massive country with privatized health care draining talent. If we were surrounded by a bunch of other single payer countries like Europe has, it might be a whole lot better.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Buster

Their political system is definitely NOT as corrupt as ours.

Canada's Lautentian Elite (OKA, the Ottawa Valley Elite), are far more corrupt/cloistered than anything the US has to offer. At least down there, it's just a dollars/money game in politics. Up here it's far worse. Plus, we have a State Broadcaster which clearly plays a corrupted role in our politics. We have nothing to brag about in this regard.

Agree to disagree. There is obviously corruption in Canada, but I believe there are more checks and balances to keep it, well, in check. Elections can be called at any time if confidence is lost and there are more than two parties for instance. I much prefer our system to their electoral college as well, I feel it gives the people more of a voice, though it's obviously not perfect. The senate is a prime example of something that doesn't work and isn't needed, but it's there just the same. I never said we were perfect.

That you refer to their system as "just a dollars/money game in politics" speaks volumes, is true and hurts the point you are trying to make. Get a big enough lobby and you can do whatever you want in the ol' US of A. Corporations buy influence and can do whatever they please, I'm not sure you can say the same for Canada. Look through this thread for instance, there is a lot of resistance to what big oil wants to do, from a lot of different places. If it were all about money, I suspect things would be very different than they are are now.

Originally Posted by Buster

As for Universal Health Care: Canada may be a case study in how this doesn't work, as much as a case study in how it does. Between bloated costs, poor quality, and public service unions decimating budgets, our health care system is hardly something to brag about. You have to be a relatively fringe player in the US to get worse quality of care than we have here. Wealthy Americans get the best health care service in the world. Cut my taxes in half, get me some insurance, and allow me to pay - and your service quality goes WAY up. They have some significant issues to address down there - but if you are employed and insured down there, your quality of healthcare is going to be heads and shoulders above Canada.

FYP. I'll take our slightly less effective healthcare that hasn't failed me yet, or anyone I know, over something that destroys the lives of the disadvantaged on a regular basis. Getting sick in the US can annihilate people's finances if they are uninsured, or under-insured. The ACA has helped a bit, but it's hardly perfect either. I won't argue with the quality difference, I'm sure it exists, but not to the degree you are suggesting. Being put on a list for months for non-essential surgery is hardly the end of the world. I'm sure there are instances where our 'inefficiencies' have hurt people but it's better than than not having the ability to afford healthcare at all, a situation many Americans find themselves in.

Many people in the US are basically living in poverty but working full time, and they still can't afford the basic necessities, even with their lower taxes. You make it sound so ideal, but it really only works for you if you are at least middle class, and even then you're dealing with private insurance companies that will find any reason they can not to cover you. They have come a long way but there are still more uninsured people in the US than there are people in all of Canada. There are plenty of people mad at this progress as well, so who knows if it's here to stay. A lot could change in the coming decades.

I disagree with this statement as well: "but if you are employed and insured down there, your quality of healthcare is going to be heads and shoulders above Canada". Here, everybody is treated the same. There, it depends on how much insurance you can afford. Just because you are employed (a changing metric) doesn't mean you can afford good enough insurance when the time comes, certainly not definitively better than what we get. There's a million different policies and countless companies provided them on a for profit basis, there is no way to compare that directly to public heathcare. It's different for everyone, depending on where you work, the lifestyle you live, and how much you can afford on top of that. I have no doubt the 1% in the US has access to the greatest healthcare in the history of mankind. The other 90-99%... it varies depending on many variables, and can't be directly be compared our system that you loathe so much.

[Bill Bumface]

[Fuzz]

Buster, I'm not sure where you get your information form, but you are grossly misinformed:


Now, I'm not saying Canada is the best but it is better than the US in many cases. Pay particular attention to that last line there....US costs nearly twice as much. There are countless studies showing outcomes in the US are not great, especially for the dollars spent. There are also a huge number of people who have lost their livelihood in the US system, even while employed and insured. Getting sick in the US can be devastating.

[Buster]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Buster, I'm not sure where you get your information form, but you are grossly misinformed:


Now, I'm not saying Canada is the best but it is better than the US in many cases. Pay particular attention to that last line there....US costs nearly twice as much. There are countless studies showing outcomes in the US are not great, especially for the dollars spent. There are also a huge number of people who have lost their livelihood in the US system, even while employed and insured. Getting sick in the US can be devastating.

US outranks Canada in all of the quality measures.

Did you read the table?

[Buster]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

Agree to disagree. There is obviously corruption in Canada, but I believe there are more checks and balances to keep it, well, in check. Elections can be called at any time if confidence is lost and there are more than two parties for instance. I much prefer our system to their electoral college as well, I feel it gives the people more of a voice, though it's obviously not perfect. The senate is a prime example of something that doesn't work and isn't needed, but it's there just the same. I never said we were perfect.

snip

Canada has far FEWER checks and balances.

The US has a system designed to grind, when it comes to policy, with clear power to sthe executive branch and the legistlative branch. Then their legislative function is split between a sort of proportional representation, and a regional representation.

In Canada, if you have a majority, you have almost limitless power over BOTH the executive and the legislative. So Canada's like cabal of elites sitting in the Ottawa valley and parts of Quebec, who define so much of policy in Canada and have huge sway over who gets elected, have MUCH more power than any individual entity in the US.

So the corrupt little club at the centre of Canada's power structures are far, far worse than anything the US can serve up. As I said, at least their interests are relatively transparent. Canada's is much closer to a little oligarchy.

[Fuzz]

Here's the link since the embeded image table seams to come and go...
http://www.forbes.com/sites/danmunro.../#81fdbc91b96f

So yes, the US outranks on a few measures, though hardly "heads and shoulders above Canada" and that's for those who can afford care. I've heard enough horror stories out fo the US that I would never, ever want their health care system, and certainly not at twice the cost.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Buster

US outranks Canada in all of the quality measures.

Did you read the table?

Did you? how about the line where we spend half what the U.S. does and still have a better overall healthcare outcomes.

If you spend twice as much on anything it aught to be better quality.

[para transit fellow]

Originally Posted by Buster

I think that's mostly sentiment getting in the way of practicality.

Alberta would be MUCH better off with close economic ties to the US, instead of Canada.

Ya Right!

That Keystone XL thing really worked out well for us.