[News] Blair Jones discussion

[Muta]

Originally Posted by Captain_Obvious

I'm not really interested in how you think my argument looks, because mentioning that Blair Jones dives really had nothing to do with it as a whole.

Last time: I don't need a statistic to back up something so simple that's been discussed at length on this board. This isn't court. It's a discussion board where (presumably) those taking part in the discussion have actually watched the Flames play.

Those who have, have seen Jones dive several times in his limited time here.

I'm going to ask you again (and fully expect you to avoid the question once again) are you saying he hasn't dove in his time here?

Either you answer yes and show you don't watch the games / pay attention... or you answer no, and show you can't say I'm wrong and that your only intent was to nit pick. In either case, it's clear why you're unwilling to answer my very simple question.

Wow.

If this isn't the pot calling the kettle black, I don't know WHAT is:

Originally Posted by Captain_Obvious

I'm going to ask you again (and fully expect you to avoid the question once again)

Cap, just say you don't have the numbers to back up your claim. The onus isn't on me to prove that he doesn't excessively dive, it has, and always will be, on you to prove that he does... YOU CLAIMED THAT.

[MolsonInBothHands]

Originally Posted by Muta

Wow.

If this isn't the pot calling the kettle black, I don't know WHAT is:




Cap, just say you don't have the numbers to back up your claim. The onus isn't on me to prove that he doesn't excessively dive, it has, and always will be, on you to prove that he does... YOU CLAIMED THAT.

http://aol.sportingnews.com/nhl/box-...calgary-flames

Asking for a stat that you know doesn't exist only gets you so far.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by MolsonInBothHands

http://aol.sportingnews.com/nhl/box-...calgary-flames

Asking for a stat that you know doesn't exist only gets you so far.

You don't think the stat exists yet you post a box score with a stat that gives Jones a diving penalty?

Ok.

See, it's really not that hard to come up with something.

[Captain_Obvious]

Originally Posted by Muta

Wow.

If this isn't the pot calling the kettle black, I don't know WHAT is:




Cap, just say you don't have the numbers to back up your claim. The onus isn't on me to prove that he doesn't excessively dive, it has, and always will be, on you to prove that he does... YOU CLAIMED THAT.

I've said several times now that there is no such stat. You keep ignoring that.

So to give you an emphatic answer, no I do not have statistics to provide you with something that's been widely seen by those who have watched the game.

Now that I've satisfied you by providing you with an answer to a question already, here's mine for a 5th time:

Are you saying you haven't seen Blair Jones dive in his limited time with the Flames?

[Muta]

Originally Posted by MolsonInBothHands

http://aol.sportingnews.com/nhl/box-...calgary-flames

Asking for a stat that you know doesn't exist only gets you so far.

If that stat isn't recored somewhere, perhaps Cap should count them up then for each game Jones plays if he's making a claim that is much more strongly presented with numbers?

[Muta]

Originally Posted by Captain_Obvious

I've said several times now that there is no such stat. You keep ignoring that.

So to give you an emphatic answer, no I do not have statistics to provide you with something that's been widely seen by those who have watched the game.

Thanks man, appreciate that.

Originally Posted by Captain_Obvious

Are you saying you haven't seen Blair Jones dive in his limited time with the Flames?

I never said that, nor implied that he never dove. You arrived at that conclusion yourself.

[Ozy_Flame]

Muta - I want Cap to to research all of the diving calls made on Jones, and identify the games where he has dove, or at least done it overtly for the entire world to see on TV.

It actually shouldn't be too much work - Jones has had limited ice time.

[MolsonInBothHands]

Originally Posted by Muta

If that stat isn't recored somewhere, perhaps Cap should count them up then for each game Jones plays if he's making a claim that is much more strongly presented with numbers?

Yes, because it was the foundation of the point he was trying to make.

Hanging on to this one little point, hoping to deflect from the main discussion point: the merit of wanting Cervenka out of the lineup, and putting Jones in the lineup doesn't really flatter your argument.

[Captain_Obvious]

Originally Posted by Muta

I never said that, nor implied that he never dove. You arrived at that conclusion yourself.

6th time: Have you seen Blair Jones dive as a member of the Calgary Flames?

This is becoming comical now.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by MolsonInBothHands

Yes, because it was the foundation of the point he was trying to make.

Hanging on to this one little point, hoping to deflect from the main discussion point: the merit of wanting Cervenka out of the lineup, and putting Jones in the lineup doesn't really flatter your argument.

The thrust of the arguement was that I (not Muta) want Cervenka out of the lineup for next season - he can walk, he can skip, I don't care. I don't think he is what we should be spending money on right now (every dollar needs to go to a true #1 center), and I think Backlund serves the same role that Cervenka would.

I also never said replace Cervenka with Jones, I said replace Cervenka with Backlund, and get Jones back in on the 4th line. I have always said that. Cap Obvious is not seeing the obvious here. Nor do I actually think he's reading posts.

Not sure what is so hard to understand here?

[Muta]

Originally Posted by MolsonInBothHands

Yes, because it was the foundation of the point he was trying to make.

Hanging on to this one little point, hoping to deflect from the main discussion point: the merit of wanting Cervenka out of the lineup, and putting Jones in the lineup doesn't really flatter your argument.

Huh? I haven't even mentioned Cervenka at all. But if you want to know, I want him in the lineup; I like what he brings.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by Captain_Obvious

6th time: Have you seen Blair Jones dive as a member of the Calgary Flames?

This is becoming comical now.

I actually have not, outside of him receiving a diving penalty.

Can you recall a particular game outside of this that makes him a constant diver?

Remember, we've asked you 5-6 times now to provide some sort of stat, and you can't give any. At least Molson posted a diving penalty stat (which still doesn't yet prove he's a habitual diver).

[Muta]

Originally Posted by Captain_Obvious

6th time: Have you seen Blair Jones dive as a member of the Calgary Flames?

This is becoming comical now.

Why is that so important to you? I didn't make the claim that he's an excessive diver... you did.

I have the answer you seek; but in the context of what I was asking you, my opinion doesn't matter anyways. I asked if you have numbers, and you didn't. Not sure what you're getting out of this at this point.

[MolsonInBothHands]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

The thrust of the arguement was that I (not Muta) want Cervenka out of the lineup for next season - he can walk, he can skip, I don't care. I don't think he is what we should be spending money on right now (every dollar needs to go to a true #1 center), and I think Backlund serves the same role that Cervenka would.

I also never said replace Cervenka with Jones, I said replace Cervenka with Backlund, and get Jones back in on the 4th line. I have always said that. Cap Obvious is not seeing the obvious here. Nor do I actually think he's reading posts.

Not sure what is so hard to understand here?

Your original post on the matter was worded in a way that would be easy to interpret you would rather see Cervenka out of the lineup instead of Jones, and I can see why you would have been called on that, can't you?

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by MolsonInBothHands

Your original post on the matter was worded in a way that would be easy to interpret you would rather see Cervenka out of the lineup instead of Jones, and I can see why you would have been called on that, can't you?

You know re-reading my first 2-3 posts on the matter I can see how that impression would come across. My apologies. I was most certainly not suggesting replace Cervenka with Jones. A better choice of words would have helped.

However, I have clarified my position numerous times after that (including mentioning Backlund as the replacement quite a while ago), and Cap refuses to buy this. It's somewhat disheartening that he can't accept my clarification and insists I meant otherwise.

[Captain_Obvious]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

I also never said replace Cervenka with Jones, I said replace Cervenka with Backlund, and get Jones back in on the 4th line. I have always said that. Cap Obvious is not seeing the obvious here. Nor do I actually think he's reading posts.

Your problem has been your poor choice of wording.

You didn't bring up Backlund until several posts after mentioning you wanted to see Cervenka gone and Jones back in.

Regardless, I've already mentioned that with Backlund back, it just provides depth and that in no way means Cervenka needs to leave the lineup.

That's fine in and of itself, but was not what you said at first.

Jones diving was an aside to that argument. I mentioned it's one of several charactersitics (the attitude, borderline skills to stick in the NHL, lack of hitting/blocking shots/fighting) that you think makes him a heart and soul player.

You didn't like that your poor logic was getting pointed out so you zero'd in on the diving thinking that if you refuted it, it would some how deflect from the poor points you were trying to make.

Again, there aren't stats on diving. But I've seen him dive several times and this has been widely discussed on this forum. You seem to be saying you haven't seen him dive once, but now a diving penalty has been brought up. That's an instance for you right there. Beyond that, I have no interest in looking up information for two posters who are just being stubborn.

Blair Jones has dove several times in his limited times with the Flames. I'm not even sure why this is such a sore spot for you two. It's really not a big deal and has little to do with what was being discussed. But it's happened whether you want to admit it or not.

[Captain_Obvious]

Originally Posted by Muta

Why is that so important to you? I didn't make the claim that he's an excessive diver... you did.

I have the answer you seek; but in the context of what I was asking you, my opinion doesn't matter anyways. I asked if you have numbers, and you didn't. Not sure what you're getting out of this at this point.

It would appear it's only important to you, because it had little to do with what was being discussed yet it's the only thing you're keying in on here.

I said several times there's no stat, and that I'm not willing to look for specific instances. I then emphatically gave you a "no" as to whether or not I was going to provide you some kind or proof.

Yet through all of that, you outright refuse to answer the very simple question "Have you seen Blair Jones dive in a Flames uniform"...

It's such a simple question, yet your inability and unwillingness to answer it suggests that it's an issue that bothers you very much. Because - as we all know - he has in fact dove several times while dress for us as was pointed out by the penalty he received for it.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by Captain_Obvious

It's such a simple question, yet your inability and unwillingness to answer it suggests that it's an issue that bothers you very much. Because - as we all know - he has in fact dove several times while dress for us as was pointed out by the penalty he received for it.

Just curious - how does one penalty prove he's done it several times? You literally just said that.

You have yet to establish he is a habitual diver, outside of your "just trust me" arguement.

The burden of proof is on you to provide examples that he has consistently dove if you so claim he does. You can't just spin the reverse question around on someone else and claim you're in the right - that's what obnoxious reporters do for sleazy entertainment magazines.

You don't want to be sleazy, do you?

[Captain_Obvious]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Just curious - how does one penalty prove he's done it several times? You literally just said that.

You have yet to establish he is a habitual diver, outside of your "just trust me" arguement.

The burden of proof is on you to provide examples that he has consistently dove if you so claim he does. You can't just spin the reverse question around on someone else and claim you're in the right - that's what obnoxious reporters do for sleazy entertainment magazines.

You don't want to be sleazy, do you?

You said you've never seen him dive at all, yet he was penalized for it.

Care to explain that?

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by Captain_Obvious

You said you've never seen him dive at all, yet he was penalized for it.

Care to explain that?

I actually haven't seen him dive - at least not watching games on TV (as you say we should have). Perhaps I missed it, but I'm glad to see that Molson provided a penalty stat for this - something you couldn't even do.

However, this still doesn't prove he's a habitual diver, and to say that one penalty proves he is a habitual diver is, well . . . . insufficient at best.