April 23 2012: Alberta Provincial Election

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

Originally Posted by Azure

I'm not sure why this is being brought up. I have no problem with spending money helping kids with learning disabilities if it can be proven that the money is being spent efficiently.

But simply generalizing things like class sizes and saying we need to spend more money to get class sizes down to 25 students because kids in classes with 35 kids aren't getting a proper education is to me a pretty dumb excuse.

Especially when people like MMF then use that logic to say that is why kids drop out of school. Your son already has something a LOT of other kids don't have. Parents that care. And parents can be a VERY important influence on how a child approaches school. Saying that we need to reduce class sizes to keep kids from dropping out is a ignorant statement when 1 on 1 teaching won't help a kid if his parents don't influence him in such a way that schooling is important.

Innovative ideas are needed in education, but it shouldn't be seen as a cost savings measure because if you start cutting funding for education you do see increase in class sizes, decreased educational opportunities (particularly for at risk youth) and worse outcomes.

Honestly I am agaisnt cutting money for education because larger class sizes have worse outcomes for those who are at the greatest risk and who as you say have parents that don't give a crap, those are the kids that the education system needs to attempt to help as much as is possible. When you do have larger class sizes I really do believe that it becomes more difficult, if not impossible for the teachers in the class to spend individualized time with those students.

You mention that you had some long distance interactive TV teacher thing, I am going to guess that requires a great deal of self-study which often comes from parental attitudes and beliefs, would such a system be effective for youth who wasn't raised with the same values - doubtful.

I just think that if you are looking at cutting government funded programs cutting those which directly benefit the youth seems like a slap in the face to future generations, especially when one of the big tenets of the Wildrose Party supporters seems to be how we have to save money for the future generations.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

Originally Posted by Jacks

Wow, this election could get nasty before it's over.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle2388261/

Nice apology. What the heck could she possibly have meant?

Sounds like a stupid 23 year old staffer rather than some sort of legitiment scheme to discredit Smith for not having children. I am surprised that when they hire staffers they don't give them a crash course on social media awareness and what not to say.

[kn]

So are lawn signs out in force anywhere? I'm only seeing the large ones on public property in Calgary Varsity.

Unlike photon, I've not received any calls, literature nor visits. I guess maybe it's still early or this riding is a foregone conclusion like it is federally.

[kn]

I'm not sure if this link has been posted but it shows polls over time. I'm interested in the polls after Redord switched her position on the "do nothing" committees. Will that really be enough to convince waffling PC'ers to stay with the sinking ship?

http://www.electionalmanac.com/ea/al...lection-polls/

[killer_carlson]

The Edmonton journal editorials are very pro redford and critical of the wr in particular.


They are also desperately trying to paint mason as an elderstatseman, despite being nothing more than a fledgling party mla

[prarieboy]

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

The Edmonton journal editorials are very pro redford and critical of the wr in particular.


They are also desperately trying to paint mason as an elderstatseman, despite being nothing more than a fledgling party mla

Doesn't surprise me. Catering to the government employees I think.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by photon

I remember seeing a few, but there were kids in the classes that needed them, and I was in a 250 kid K-12 school for a while. That was in SK though.

Now it really just depends on what's required, in the school we're moving into they have a few aides that work with all the classes as there's no kid that requires a full time aide. For my kid's move it looks like they're hiring someone to add to their pool of aides to accommodate him.

But just because your idea of a normal classroom is 1 teacher x kids, or that the standard classroom is that, doesn't mean that that's the way it should be. There's good reasons for those kids to be in "normal" classrooms associating with "normal" kids. The biggest one being that constantly marginalizing a child because he isn't "normal" just compounds the problems associated with not being typical.

Seems to me you're talking from personal experience. I've honestly never had to deal with students with learning disabilities, and when I think back on most of my 'classes'.....the majority of the students were just fine. Except for the lazy and uninterested part.

I don't really think its my place to state how kids with learning disabilities should be taught. If it requires 'normal'.....then I'm all for as normal as possible. Seems to me this perhaps requires a normal sized class(25-30 kids)...but with extra help, such as an aide or something.

Which doesn't go against my point that class sizes don't need to be reduced in order to 'better' the education of most kids. You're obviously talking about 'normal' interaction which I could see as being extremely beneficial for a child with learning disabilities.

The original point I had a problem with was when MMF said that large class sizes lead to kids dropping out before they graduate.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Mean Mr. Mustard

Innovative ideas are needed in education, but it shouldn't be seen as a cost savings measure because if you start cutting funding for education you do see increase in class sizes, decreased educational opportunities (particularly for at risk youth) and worse outcomes.

Simply throwing more money at education without sitting down and having a serious discussion over how kids are taught, the resources we give them, etc, etc isn't the solution either. And it seems like that is exactly what you want.

[Flickered Flame]

As an educator in this province, what I've found interesting is that the WRA is proposing merit pay for teachers, basically the better a teacher's students do on a standardized test, the more pay the teacher would receive.

This goes against everything teachers have been working on for the past 3-5 years in terms of assessment. Standardized tests were/are coming to an end, if the PCs win this election. Or at least that is the hope.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by Flickered Flame

As an educator in this province, what I've found interesting is that the WRA is proposing merit pay for teachers, basically the better a teacher's students do on a standardized test, the more pay the teacher would receive.

This goes against everything teachers have been working on for the past 3-5 years in terms of assessment. Standardized tests were/are coming to an end, if the PCs win this election. Or at least that is the hope.

How do you objectively compare students without standardized tests? Assessments you can have confidence in crucial for university entrance and scholarships and such.

[Flickered Flame]

Originally Posted by SebC

How do you objectively compare students without standardized tests? Assessments you can have confidence in crucial for university entrance and scholarships and such.

Perhaps standardized tests in grade 12 are appropriate but the stress that these tests create for teachers and students in grades 3, 6 and 9 are completely inappropriate.

And maybe for the grade 12 level exams, a weighting of 50% is not necessary. I also think post secondary institutions should reconsider entrance procedures.

Really for me it boils down to the fact that we need to move away from these 200-300 teaching models and move into the now. Students should not be compared with each other, there maybe exceptions, it should be about each individual student and what each of those students can achieve.

[MarchHare]

I don't necessarily think teacher salaries should be linked to test results, but I'm not against the idea of standardized tests in principle. Without them, how can you objectively measure the performance of students? We didn't have standardized tests when I was in high school, and as students we would always gripe if we were assigned to a class whose teacher had a reputation for giving tougher tests/assignments because of what it meant for our university admissions and scholarship potential.

[Flickered Flame]

If standardized tests continue, what will happen is that teachers will just close their doors and teach to the test rather than trying to develop critical thinking skills in students.

[llama64]

Originally Posted by Flickered Flame

If standardized tests continue, what will happen is that teachers will just close their doors and teach to the test rather than trying to develop critical thinking skills in students.

Critical thinkers are more likely to actually pay attention to rhetorical nonsense and call the political parties on it - why would any populist based party EVER want a voter base of critical thinkers? It's much easier to control a population of mentally lazy followers who react emotionally rather then intellectually.

I've never comprehended the hate that teachers get when it's clearly the administration level (and bureaucracy that manage the managers) that is the problem in our education system. But then, it's easier to scream and shout about unions and greedy teachers then to find systemic issues to solve (intellectual laziness).

[chemgear]

Originally Posted by Flickered Flame

Students should not be compared with each other, there maybe exceptions, it should be about each individual student and what each of those students can achieve.

Originally Posted by Flickered Flame

If standardized tests continue, what will happen is that teachers will just close their doors and teach to the test rather than trying to develop critical thinking skills in students.

But in post secondary education/the real world, they absolutely will be compared against each other.

The standarized tests have been around for years now, no?

[Flickered Flame]

Originally Posted by chemgear

But in post secondary education/the real world, they absolutely will be compared against each other.

The standarized tests have been around for years now, no?

There are several post secondary programs that no longer compare students, use the curve, its now a matter of individual achievement. But that is an institution by institution decision.

Yes they have. The PC party has already said that PATs (standardized tests) will be eliminated in grades 3 and 6.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by Flickered Flame

Perhaps standardized tests in grade 12 are appropriate but the stress that these tests create for teachers and students in grades 3, 6 and 9 are completely inappropriate.

And maybe for the grade 12 level exams, a weighting of 50% is not necessary. I also think post secondary institutions should reconsider entrance procedures.

Really for me it boils down to the fact that we need to move away from these 200-300 teaching models and move into the now. Students should not be compared with each other, there maybe exceptions, it should be about each individual student and what each of those students can achieve.

The Grade 9 test, I feel, is important, due to the segregated nature of high school classes (i.e. pure math vs. applied math vs. math 14). And how do track school performance without standardized testing? How do you ensure consistent grading across the system? Students should not be compared to each other? Of course they should. How else do you figure out where to allocate post-secondary resources?

Originally Posted by Flickered Flame

If standardized tests continue, what will happen is that teachers will just close their doors and teach to the test rather than trying to develop critical thinking skills in students.

Couldn't you make critical thinking part of the test?

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Jacks

Wow, this election could get nasty before it's over.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle2388261/




Nice apology. What the heck could she possibly have meant?

I don't think it's an election issue, but I'm willing to confess I did wonder about this. When someone's married and at that age, and talks about family values and such it just makes me curious. I don't think it should come up in an election campaign.

The reality is that this is a nothing issue though. Campaigns have a lot of people representing them at all levels. These people are largely untrained, and you get this kind of thing from time to time. Its a similar situation with the Calgary West Wildrose who put out attack ads and had to pull them the same day because of the copyrighted materials.

[chemgear]

Originally Posted by SebC

Students should not be compared to each other? Of course they should.

Yeah, I gotta agree. While it may sound good on a "touchy-feely" to somehow judge "individual potential fulfillment", it would be disingenuous and not prepare people for the workforce/reality at all.

Even more adults would be deluded/thinking they're somehow "special" and get steamrolled in the real world.

[Flickered Flame]

Originally Posted by SebC

The Grade 9 test, I feel, is important, due to the segregated nature of high school classes (i.e. pure math vs. applied math vs. math 14). And how do track school performance without standardized testing? How do you ensure consistent grading across the system? Students should not be compared to each other? Of course they should. How else do you figure out where to allocate post-secondary resources?

Couldn't you make critical thinking part of the test?

For the grade 9 PATs it is an individual school decision on whether the achievement test has any value on a student's final mark. I have worked in 3 jr. high schools, none of them used the results on the student's final grade.

Yes you could but it is much more cost effective for Alberta Education (the government) if these tests are all multiple choice. Critical thinking usually needs a written component. They did attempt a written portion of the grade 9 social pat but it was quickly removed.