Tij Iginla ranked No. 10 overall by Bob McKenzie for 2024 NHL Draft

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I don't think anyone is arguing that, but a good puck distributor who can elevate their linemates to score more can be more valuable than a player who scores more goals.

Who would you rather have on your team? Zach Hyman (54 goals), or Barkov/Barzal (23 goals each).

Who would you rather have? Matthews or JT Miller (69 apples) I can do it too.

To answer your question, you need both. Scoring goals is the hardest thing to do in the NHL. And downplaying it, by arguing that the setup guy is more valuable, is a bit disingenuous

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I don't think anyone is arguing that, but a good puck distributor who can elevate their linemates to score more can be more valuable than a player who scores more goals.

Who would you rather have on your team? Zach Hyman (54 goals), or Barkov/Barzal (23 goals each).

I'd rather have Barkov than Hyman. Hyman v Barzal is a tossup.

[TrentCrimmIndependent]

In Calgary Hyman would struggle to be as good as Coleman.

McDavid has quite the effect on the offensive output of players around him. Even if not directly involved, I think playing with that offense/PP gives otherwise average top 6 supporting players a boost in confidence.

The dolts on TV are too thick to comprehend this somehow though. Instead every one that happens to be playing on the McOffense should be up for individual trophies..

Barkov was good before Florida was good. He's an absolute stud and a top 3 200ft center to boot.

[butterfly]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Scoring goals is the hardest thing to do in the NHL.

Preventing goals is equally as difficult, equally as valuable, and far less glamorous than scoring them.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by butterfly

Preventing goals is equally as difficult, equally as valuable, and far less glamorous than scoring them.

I don’t think so. Usually ~90% of goals are prevented. It happens far more frequently and far more easily than scoring does.

If scoring goals and preventing goals were equally difficult then you’d expect it to be closer to 50/50.

[butterfly]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I don’t think so. Usually ~90% of goals are prevented. It happens far more frequently and far more easily than scoring does.

If scoring goals and preventing goals were equally difficult then you’d expect it to be closer to 50/50.

90% of shots, sure. There is more to goal prevention than saving shots. Suppression of shot volume and minimization of shot quality are very important to goal prevention.

One team can only create a goal if the other fails to suppress it.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by butterfly

90% of shots, sure. There is more to goal prevention than saving shots. Suppression of shot volume and minimization of shot quality are very important to goal prevention.

One team can only create a goal if the other fails to suppress it.

Right, so you’re saying even more goals are prevented than shots that are saved, which means it happens even more often than 90% of the time on average.

Considering all the obstacles/suppression attempts a player has to get through, to the point where you’re saying they can only even score a goal if all of those things fail, that to me points pretty clearly to it being the more difficult thing to do.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Since the lockout ended when Carolina destroyed the Oilers to win a cup. Look at the #1C on each team. Do you see one with goals and assists like Matthews?

Only ones coming close are Point and Staal and its like 10 points tilted to goals. I think 50/50 season for Staal.

A guy like Crosby says I want to score goals, he scores still gets his assists dragging a few pluggers along with him.

Unfortunately the same with McMickey. Hyman is a 15 goal scorer withouth him. He took a 3rd liner and turned him into a "elite" goal scorer. Crosby was dragging around guys like Kunitz, Dupuis, Rust etc.

If you stuck those same players on Matthews wing do you think you get the same production?

[Sainters7]

Originally Posted by The Fonz

Berkly Catton is going to fall to 9 for us so we don't even need to worry about this!

More likely though, Helenius is there and I'd rather him than Eiserman.

That, and I have a feeling Ottawa or Seattle is gonna steal Tij anyway. Just had this feeling down the stretch we had to get ahead of Ottawa if we want Tij. Just couldn't do it.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Who would you rather have? Matthews or JT Miller (69 apples) I can do it too.

To answer your question, you need both. Scoring goals is the hardest thing to do in the NHL. And downplaying it, by arguing that the setup guy is more valuable, is a bit disingenuous

You need players that can do both (score and distribute), but you don't need one-dimensional players that score goals at a 2:1 goals to assists ratio. Only 2 out of the top 100 top scorers in the NHL had lopsided stats like that (one being arguably a generational goal scoring talent), and only 8 of the top 100 had more goals than assists. Most of those 8 were still close to 50/50. Many teams get by just without players like that.

A good puck distributor can make average players have above average production, in a addition to their own. A goal scorer who doesn't distribute well isn't going to have as big of an impact alone.

[butterfly]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Right, so you’re saying even more goals are prevented than shots that are saved, which means it happens even more often than 90% of the time on average.

Considering all the obstacles/suppression attempts a player has to get through, to the point where you’re saying they can only even score a goal if all of those things fail, that to me points pretty clearly to it being the more difficult thing to do.

Let's assume all shots are created equal - they're clearly not, but it reduces variables for simplicity of argument. If league average is allowing 30 shots and 10% of them go in, and my team allows 27 shots and 10% of them go in, or allows 30 shots and 9% of them go in, that's every bit as valuable as your team creating 0.3 goals/game above average.

When you can only succeed at goal creation at the expense of the other team failing at goal suppression, they're equally important to winning regardless of how often they happen.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by butterfly

Preventing goals is equally as difficult, equally as valuable, and far less glamorous than scoring them.

I get your point. But it is not equally as difficult. You can't teach goal scoring.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

You need players that can do both (score and distribute), but you don't need one-dimensional players that score goals at a 2:1 goals to assists ratio. Only 2 out of the top 100 top scorers in the NHL had lopsided stats like that (one being arguably a generational goal scoring talent), and only 8 of the top 100 had more goals than assists. Most of those 8 were still close to 50/50. Many teams get by just without players like that.

A good puck distributor can make average players have above average production, in a addition to their own. A goal scorer who doesn't distribute well isn't going to have as big of an impact alone.

The ratio does not automatically mean one-dimensional. Perhaps their line-mates simply couldn't score.

If the line is producing, who cares if only one guy is lighting the lamp?

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

The ratio does not automatically mean one-dimensional. Perhaps their line-mates simply couldn't score.

If the line is producing, who cares if only one guy is lighting the lamp?

368 goals and 281 assists tells me he one dimensional.

[butterfly]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I get your point. But it is not equally as difficult. You can't teach goal scoring.

Well, if you agree that it's equally as valuable but argue that it's easier, that's an easily exploitable market inefficiency, right?

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by butterfly

Well, if you agree that it's equally as valuable but argue that it's easier, that's an easily exploitable market inefficiency, right?

didn't say it was equally valuable - I said goals were the hardest thing to do in the NHL

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

368 goals and 281 assists tells me he one dimensional.

would 281 goals and 368 assists be one-dimensional?

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by butterfly

Let's assume all shots are created equal - they're clearly not, but it reduces variables for simplicity of argument. If league average is allowing 30 shots and 10% of them go in, and my team allows 27 shots and 10% of them go in, or allows 30 shots and 9% of them go in, that's every bit as valuable as your team creating 0.3 goals/game above average.

When you can only succeed at goal creation at the expense of the other team failing at goal suppression, they're equally important to winning regardless of how often they happen.

We’re talking about them being equally difficult, not whether their value is equal. But since you’re conceding they aren’t the same difficulty, we can move onto the value thing.

Your numbers don’t point to any sort of equal value, and just by thinking about it logically, it’s an easy argument to dismiss. Every game, there are probably hundreds of events that prevent a potential goal. Saves are the last resort, but everything from blocks, hits, poke checks, interceptions, takeaways, etc all suppress potential goals. If every act of goal suppression is equal value to scoring a goal, that suggests Vincent Desharnais should make more than McDavid… which… lol. Good luck with that.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by butterfly

Preventing goals is equally as difficult, equally as valuable, and far less glamorous than scoring them.

Players score goals. Defensive systems and goaltending prevent them.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

368 goals and 281 assists tells me he one dimensional.

Matthews game has improved to the point he's one of the best 2-way centers in the league which is anything but one-dimensional. He just happens to perform the most difficult task in the NHL better than almost everyone else while excelling at both ends of the ice.