Matthew Tkachuk & Johnny Gaudreau Signing Watch Thread

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by TOfan

Half the people, or probably more, have been clamouring for a rebuild for years anyway. You think they would be happy, but no. Just another thing to complain endlessly about.

I don’t think it is half I think it is a small group of posters who say the same thing over and over again. They were quiet or even left the forum altogether during the season. Also no Johnny or Tkachuk doesn’t mean this team rebuilds as long as Sutter is around.

[Mr.Coffee]

Sutter may retire. But if you can keep him he is a great coach for a rebuild and rookies or young players. Look at how players develop and adapt under his watch. Most of them become fantastic so if you can keep him for a few years still you should.

Nothing wrong with a rebuild of done correctly. It’s going to come anyway.

[Vinny01]

Darryl didn’t retire to coach a 5 year rebuild. The team will be picking 8-15 under his watch

[powderjunkie]

Y'all are forgetting about Johnny's 5 team trade list and how it would have limited options. The list itself would have been some interesting tea leaves to consider.

I suspect Tre presented the scenarios, possible trade returns, and his recommendation to ownership before a few pressure points (July 28, and TDL).

Before NTC kicked in, I think the decision was to see how the season went and then reassess, since they didn't see a huge differential in how the returns would change.

Trading him before TDL is simply LOSER thinking given the circumstances. And this comes from a huge pessimist who thought the team had <5% chance of making the finals and like 1% chance of winning the cup.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by dammage79

It's a tough call either way. At least if you chose asset management you'd have something to try and help move on from Gaudreau. Sadly this scenario is playing out. And I don't exactly know for sure if the juice was worth the squeeze...

If Gaudreau had a 115 pt season last year, then the decision would have been much more obvious, and I think something would have easily gotten done last summer. Unfortunately, he did not, and here we are. This time last summer there were too many questions surrounding Gaudreau to sign him at the value that he now commands, and the trade returns in a potential deal were likely too low to provide much longer term value to the team moving forward. It sucks, but here we are, and no one is to blame for it.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Well I didn’t say Treliving is or was stupid I said the better decision could have been (we will find out in a week) to trade him back in January at the latest IF Gaudreau would not have signed by an internally provided deadline for a long term extension. It’s called maintaining negotiating leverage / power instead of giving it away like we did.

I just don't think this is something that was ever a realistic option. Sure, it is technically plausible to move any player at any time, but there are mitigating factors that make this proposition essentially impossible. Gaudreau had trade protection, the team was in the thick of a playoff race and at the top of the Division; there are relationships involved (between players, agents, other managers and owners) to consider. In truth, I think the return itself would more likely have been underwhelming, and not nearly enough to offset the certain fallout that would have followed from such a seismic move.

As to your other question, I will ask you back. Do you think with the season he was having a team would have picked him up for a playoff run or a chance to make the playoffs?

You weren't asking me, but I don't think there would have been any problem moving Gaudreau at the TD. Mind you, given the timeframe, the obstacle of Gaudreau's trade list, and the canniness of other managers who no doubt would have smelled the blood in the water, I am sceptical that the return would have been anything but underwhelming.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by butterfly

Agreed!

Touché.

[Inferno]

Unless Johnny tells you he has no interest in coming back it's a pretty easy decision and the right one to not trade him when you're top of the division and are expected to atleast make the Conference Final no matter how unsure you are of him re-signing.

If he ends up leaving it will suck but it's not like the Flames were a bubble team and Treliving decided to take a chance just to make the playoffs.

[atb]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

If Gaudreau had a 115 pt season last year, then the decision would have been much more obvious, and I think something would have easily gotten done last summer. Unfortunately, he did not, and here we are. This time last summer there were too many questions surrounding Gaudreau to sign him at the value that he now commands, and the trade returns in a potential deal were likely too low to provide much longer term value to the team moving forward. It sucks, but here we are, and no one is to blame for it.

My only caveat to that is how much were Johnny’s down seasons due to coaching. Bit frustrating to think how things would have looked if an experienced coach was brought in instead of keeping Ward. My opinion is BT wasted some of Johnny’s prime years with the Flames with poor coaching hires.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by atb

My only caveat to that is how much were Johnny’s down seasons due to coaching. Bit frustrating to think how things would have looked if an experienced coach was brought in instead of keeping Ward. My opinion is BT wasted some of Johnny’s prime years with the Flames with poor coaching hires.

A lot of this current bulld and core were wasted to poor coaching hires. Like a lot of years.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by atb

My only caveat to that is how much were Johnny’s down seasons due to coaching. Bit frustrating to think how things would have looked if an experienced coach was brought in instead of keeping Ward. My opinion is BT wasted some of Johnny’s prime years with the Flames with poor coaching hires.

Ever wonder why it took the Flames 3-4 weeks after the 2019 bubble to formally announce Ward was the coach?

Friedman, and others, have said the Flames started talking to Sutter shortly after Peters was dismissed.

Connect the dots.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by atb

My only caveat to that is how much were Johnny’s down seasons due to coaching. Bit frustrating to think how things would have looked if an experienced coach was brought in instead of keeping Ward. My opinion is BT wasted some of Johnny’s prime years with the Flames with poor coaching hires.

I get that. But this argument depends entirely on opportunity and circumstances. From our vantage point it is easy to say that the manager should just go hire this or that coach. But I think in real life things are way, way more complicated. Things played out the way they did, and I am not convinced they even could have happened much differently.

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[djsFlames]

Originally Posted by Inferno

Unless Johnny tells you he has no interest in coming back it's a pretty easy decision and the right one to not trade him when you're top of the division and are expected to atleast make the Conference Final no matter how unsure you are of him re-signing.

If he ends up leaving it will suck but it's not like the Flames were a bubble team and Treliving decided to take a chance just to make the playoffs.

If he re-ups (especially at the rumoured 9.5) I think Treliving will set us up nicely for another kick at the can with another year of development and fine tuning under Sutter.

I think Edmonton's twitter minions are blowing sunshine up people's asses and they'll come back notably worse.

Could be a strong follow up season if they can actually shed Lucic this off-season.

I think those are things Johnny should consider. Come back and rectify that post-season with your long time friends and teammates.

[atb]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I get that. But this argument depends entirely on opportunity and circumstances. From our vantage point it is easy to say that the manager should just go hire this or that coach. But I think in real life things are way, way more complicated. Things played out the way they did, and I am not convinced they even could have happened much differently.

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That’s fair, but if Gaudreau was willing to do a contract last summer and the Flames weren’t willing to go to the dollars/term, that’s a failure of management not understanding why Johnny had down years or what his potential upside might be with a full season of Sutter coaching. Obviously a lot of us didn’t see this season coming, and a long term contract might have been panned by the fan base at the time, but it’s looking like BT gambled and lost.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by atb

My only caveat to that is how much were Johnny’s down seasons due to coaching. Bit frustrating to think how things would have looked if an experienced coach was brought in instead of keeping Ward. My opinion is BT wasted some of Johnny’s prime years with the Flames with poor coaching hires.

Treliving's coaching hires were the worst mark on his record before Sutter. He made plenty of good signings and trades, but he made some terrible coaching decisions. Gulutzan is probably the coach I dislike most in the decades I have watched the team. Hiring Sutter has been a massive recovery.

I do appreciate that Treliving has shown time and again that he's willing to try making big moves to improve the team.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by atb

That’s fair, but if Gaudreau was willing to do a contract last summer and the Flames weren’t willing to go to the dollars/term, that’s a failure of management not understanding why Johnny had down years or what his potential upside might be with a full season of Sutter coaching. Obviously a lot of us didn’t see this season coming, and a long term contract might have been panned by the fan base at the time, but it’s looking like BT gambled and lost.

We have already been over this, but "potential" for a 27-year-old player is not at all easy to pin down. Yes, not extending Gaudreau was a risk, but so was signing him ahead of this year. There was no predicting what did happen. And besides, had Gaudreau signed in the summer it seems realistically possible that he would not have had a career year, since there seems to be a pretty common correlation between a player's contract status and performance.

In the end, no. This was not a "failure." Yes, it was a gamble, but it was a gamble either way.

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[Vinny01]

If anything goes down with Tkachuk via trade you have to think New Jersey is the team. They need him the most and have the cap space to commit big money to. Tkachuk is apparently quite close with the Hughes boys and Jack is starting his 8 year extension. I just read that the Devils GM is also related to Tkachuk so he would likely have a great chance to sign him when it is all said and done.

Flames up their offer on Johnny to $11M send Chucky to the Devils for the 2nd pick, Holtz, Zacha and the Flames snag one or Wright, Slafkovsky, or Cooley

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by TOfan

Ever wonder why it took the Flames 3-4 weeks after the 2019 bubble to formally announce Ward was the coach?

Friedman, and others, have said the Flames started talking to Sutter shortly after Peters was dismissed.

Connect the dots.

Sorry not being an ass and honestly asking here what dots are we connecting? Are you suggesting Sutter didn’t want to come coach the Flames until after the COVID season was over?

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Sorry not being an ass and honestly asking here what dots are we connecting? Are you suggesting Sutter didn’t want to come coach the Flames until after the COVID season was over?

Whatever the reason it seems like they tried to get him earlier and the timing wasn’t right. If I recall this has been reported by a few different people.
Then you have the weird delay in renewing ward
It seems like they tried to convince Sutter to come off the farm then and couldn’t so ward was plan b

[djsFlames]

Trade Tkachuk for picks and you could get anything, maybe even a Tkachuk!