The 2016 Toronto Blue Jays Thread

[chockfullofgoodness]

God DAMN that was a satisfying win!!

[ben voyonsdonc]

Best. Rain. Delay. Ever.

[flames_fan_down_under]

That was a satisfying win

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

In hindsight, the Jays haven't done bad, and I like their trade deadline moves, but you don't start the season as a contending team with a hole in LF, Smoak as your starting 1b, no bullpen at all, Thole as your backup catcher, and 2 of your 5 starters with innings limits. That's what frustrates a lot of Jays fans. Everyone one of those moves can be said to be financially motivated when this team was setup to win it all and has a very short timeline.

Honestly, if t wasn't for completely unexpected performances way above our wildest expectations by Happ and Sanchez, where would this team be? Sure you can say it doesn't matter, those performances happened, but contending teams do no leave that to chance.

sure they have performed above expectations but other core guys like Stroman, Jose and Smollabelo have been huge dissapointments. That's sports.
You can't predict each players performance and team success hinges on how core guys produce or don't. I don't see how the Jays are any different or how contending teams don't leave that to chance. That statement makes no sense

[calculoso]

In Sports, there is no sure thing. If there was, the best teams would have a .850-.900 win percentage instead of a .550-.650. The Yankees buying all of the "best players" would not be middle of the pack the last couple years. It just doesn't happen, and to expect it... no, to demand it... is just foolish, naive, and setting up for a huge disappointment.

As they say.. that's why they play the games

[savemedrzaius]

Tulo really seems to be enjoying himself lately. It seems like he has finally settled in with the team and the city and we are getting to see the real Tulo.

I thought Feldman looked pretty good and is it just me or do a lot of the young Yanks look like A-Rod.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

sure they have performed above expectations but other core guys like Stroman, Jose and Smollabelo have been huge dissapointments. That's sports.
You can't predict each players performance and team success hinges on how core guys produce or don't. I don't see how the Jays are any different or how contending teams don't leave that to chance. That statement makes no sense

How does it not make sense? Can you Tell me another team that was supposed to contend for a World Series (not came out of nowhere to contend), that started the season with 2 essentially rookies on innings limits and not really a single pitcher that could be considered an ace? I can't think of one. They all go out and some spend some cash so they don't have a huge hole. The Blue Jaya really did nothing, and that's what gets people so riled up.

Did it work out for them? Absolutely in hindsight, but that wasn't by design, that was by chance. You don't going into a World Series contending season leaving something to chance.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by savemedrzaius

Tulo really seems to be enjoying himself lately. It seems like he has finally settled in with the team and the city and we are getting to see the real Tulo.

I thought Feldman looked pretty good and is it just me or do a lot of the young Yanks look like A-Rod.

After just a terrible start, Tulo could end up hitting .270 with 30 home runs. That's an amazing turn around of his season.

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

that started the season with 2 essentially rookies on innings limits

I've seen you make this statement a couple of times. Where has it ever been said that Stroman has an innings limit? I remember a post-game with Gibbons earlier in the year where they said he wasn't on one. Has it changed?

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

The Blue Jaya really did nothing, and that's what gets people me so riled up.

Fixed for you...

[Machiavelli]

Day game today

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

How does it not make sense? Can you Tell me another team that was supposed to contend for a World Series (not came out of nowhere to contend), that started the season with 2 essentially rookies on innings limits and not really a single pitcher that could be considered an ace? I can't think of one. They all go out and some spend some cash so they don't have a huge hole. The Blue Jaya really did nothing, and that's what gets people so riled up.

Did it work out for them? Absolutely in hindsight, but that wasn't by design, that was by chance. You don't going into a World Series contending season leaving something to chance.

Let's break this down.
1. You are moving the goal posts. You stated that contending teams don't leave things to chance. Now you are isolating to a very edge case situation where two teams have young players on innings limit.
2. One of those players we haven't even heard anything about innings limits during this stretch drive.
3. I think they were hoping Stroman was their ace, or Estrada.
4. You seem pissed off that they didn't bank up the brinks truck for Price, even though clearly that would have been the wrong decision in retrospect
5. Absent Price, where would they have gone out to get this supposed ace
6. Happ started to look good in the 2nd half of the season. His performance this year is a surprise but really just a continuation of that trajectory. Perhaps they saw that and felt he had that in him
7. Regardless THEY built this team so they get credit for the good moves and being in first. THEY got Happ. THEY put Sanchez in the rotation. THEY re-signed Estrada. They did all that and frankly those moves look really good and probably better than if they had followed your advice by spending huge coin on Price (and not bringing back Estrada)
8. You seem to want to chalk up anything that has gone their way to luck, while at the same time railing against them for made up scenarios and what ifs.
9. Your entire beef seems to be grounded in that they don't spend enough money. Guess what. It ain't your money. As a publicly traded company they are responsible to their shareholders because it is THEIR money. Moreover, it isn't like they are in the bottom half of the league. If this is what matters to you more than anything else - you need to cheer for the Yankees, Dodgers or BoSox otherwise you will be perpetually frustrated.

Your arguments are so clouded in your irrational hate for Rogers that you've lost sight if enjoying a really fun team.

I don't get it.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by calculoso

I've seen you make this statement a couple of times. Where has it ever been said that Stroman has an innings limit? I remember a post-game with Gibbons earlier in the year where they said he wasn't on one. Has it changed?



Fixed for you...

Stroman was supposed to be in the same innings limit as Sanchez and it was discussed all spring training. Sanchez is the ace though, so all the attention has since gone to him. Stroman could over his innings limits (though no one really knows what it is) and not a single person/media outlet would
Care because they are fixated on Sanchez for obvious reasons.

If you think it's just me Fed up with the way Rogers does business you are crazy. This debate was a direct response to someone asking why people on social media/call in shows/etc were so negative towards a first place team. Is it over negative this year? Yup. Is it based, on real problems with how the Blue Jays operate their club and past precedence? Absolutely.

[howard_the_duck]

I feel like this article was written specifically for TAO

http://bluejaysnation.com/2016/8/16/...blue-jays-land

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Let's break this down.
1. You are moving the goal posts. You stated that contending teams don't leave things to chance. Now you are isolating to a very edge case situation where two teams have young players on innings limit.
2. One of those players we haven't even heard anything about innings limits during this stretch drive.
3. I think they were hoping Stroman was their ace, or Estrada.
4. You seem pissed off that they didn't bank up the brinks truck for Price, even though clearly that would have been the wrong decision in retrospect
5. Absent Price, where would they have gone out to get this supposed ace
6. Happ started to look good in the 2nd half of the season. His performance this year is a surprise but really just a continuation of that trajectory. Perhaps they saw that and felt he had that in him
7. Regardless THEY built this team so they get credit for the good moves and being in first. THEY got Happ. THEY put Sanchez in the rotation. THEY re-signed Estrada. They did all that and frankly those moves look really good and probably better than if they had followed your advice by spending huge coin on Price (and not bringing back Estrada)
8. You seem to want to chalk up anything that has gone their way to luck, while at the same time railing against them for made up scenarios and what ifs.
9. Your entire beef seems to be grounded in that they don't spend enough money. Guess what. It ain't your money. As a publicly traded company they are responsible to their shareholders because it is THEIR money. Moreover, it isn't like they are in the bottom half of the league. If this is what matters to you more than anything else - you need to cheer for the Yankees, Dodgers or BoSox otherwise you will be perpetually frustrated.

Your arguments are so clouded in your irrational hate for Rogers that you've lost sight if enjoying a really fun team.

I don't get it.

I'm not moving the goal posts at all. The Jays started the season with significant holes that easily could have been filled with free agency. The biggest of which was the starting pitching. You couldn't have watched many of the pre-season Jays broadcast if you for some reason don't think Stroman was on an innings limit. It was talked about repeatedly. In fact the focus wasn't on Sanchez, because at that point it was 50/50 if he'd even be in the rotation, it was on Stroman because they were counting on a 24 year old with less than 20 major league starts to be the ace of their pitching staff on a team with a roster built to win the World Series today which is completely and utterly ridiculous.

"Move the goal posts" has now become your go to when you don't have a response to what it is i'm asking you. What contending team have you ever seen entering the season do what the Blue Jays did? If it's such a good approach, how come no one else is doing it? We all know the reason why it was done by the Jays, whether you refuse to admit it or not.

I'm not disputing that the results have been great, i'm saying no one in their right mind could have predicted them. There's no way that Shapiro and Atkins knew along that Happ would have the best record in the major leagues, and Sanchez would advance X20 in his development. They rolled the dice (the only option they had given ownership) and won big time.

The original poster asked why people can be so negative across the board on a team in first place, well there's a bunch of people that have been following this team lose for decades for the 9 out of 10 other times the Jays dice rolling to save money have not worked. When we are finally in a position to win it all, the stands are packed, and the team's merchandise is rolling they expect all the stops to be made to win, because we are not the Red Sox or Yankees, this isn't an opportunity that we get frequently.

My hatred for Rogers is not irrational. It's based on two decades of them lying to Jays fans, lying to players, floating BS through their media chanels, cheaping out, and generally being terrible owners and screwing this franchise with short-sighted decisions.

I do get your point though, I can see how my negativity could be very annoying and I will try and turn it down a notch. I also acknowledge that my hatred (though not irrational) of Rogers is likely causing me not to enjoy as much the Jays recent successes as a I should. People seem to think i'm negative because I want to see the Jays lose. That couldn't be farther from the truth. It's because I want them to win so badly, that when they are in a position to make some noise, anything short of going all in drives me ####ing crazy. I'm a guy who flies to 3-4 Jays series every year, and I plan every last single one of my vacations around it. I even tried to work remotely from Florida last year during spring training so that I could get to see it, because i'll never get to see it until I retire otherwise (30 more years), and there's no guarantee you'll still be around for that day to come.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by howard_the_duck

I feel like this article was written specifically for TAO

http://bluejaysnation.com/2016/8/16/...blue-jays-land

While I can see the justification for Smoak, I cannot accept anything on Thole. He is an affront on baseball. If Josh Thole hit a Joe Carter'esq home run for the Jays to win the World Series, my opinion would not change on him.

[puffnstuff]

I hit better than Thole. You hit better than Thole. Everyone hits better than Thole.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

Smoak is a switch hitter and Carerra also bats left. In a 2-1 playoff game, do you want Saunders in the outfield if he's back to hitting .250? I don't. Hopefully he keeps up his hitting, if he doesn't though, he needs to be a bench player.

Originally Posted by puffnstuff

I hit better than Thole. You hit better than Thole. Everyone hits better than Thole.

Josh Thole is a below average backup catcher.

NEXT

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by puffnstuff

I hit better than Thole. You hit better than Thole. Everyone hits better than Thole.

That's not even really what frustrates me the most. He's a below-average catcher and having to carry him completely limits Gibbons options on the bench (pinch hitting and running).

Poor offence is fine for a backup catcher (though he is far beyond poor), but if you don't bring anything to the plate, you need to be a great defensive catcher and he is not.

Hopefully we see Jiminez when the rosters expand in September.

[TheAlpineOracle]

In scanning the Jays stats in AAA Buffalo, I came across that they have a $12 32 oz draft beer, I bet it gets pretty rowdy at the games there. Having been to Buffalo for a Bills game, they sure like to drink in that area.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

I'm not moving the goal posts at all. The Jays started the season with significant holes that easily could have been filled with free agency. The biggest of which was the starting pitching. You couldn't have watched many of the pre-season Jays broadcast if you for some reason don't think Stroman was on an innings limit. It was talked about repeatedly. In fact the focus wasn't on Sanchez, because at that point it was 50/50 if he'd even be in the rotation, it was on Stroman because they were counting on a 24 year old with less than 20 major league starts to be the ace of their pitching staff on a team with a roster built to win the World Series today which is completely and utterly ridiculous.

What is more relevant - what was being talked about in the pre-season or what is being talked about and done now? Clearly they aren't worried about Stroman being on a innings limited.

I don't think they were counting on Stroman alone - they had put together a pretty solid rotation overall. The hope was Stroman would maintain or take another step - but they clearly weren't "counting" on him along as he didn't - and they are still in first.

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

"Move the goal posts" has now become your go to when you don't have a response to what it is i'm asking you. What contending team have you ever seen entering the season do what the Blue Jays did? If it's such a good approach, how come no one else is doing it? We all know the reason why it was done by the Jays, whether you refuse to admit it or not.

Do what? Enter a season with a not-perfect team and holes? How about virtually every time in the majors.
I'll stop talking about moving the goal posts when you stop moving them.

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

I'm not disputing that the results have been great, i'm saying no one in their right mind could have predicted them. There's no way that Shapiro and Atkins knew along that Happ would have the best record in the major leagues, and Sanchez would advance X20 in his development. They rolled the dice (the only option they had given ownership) and won big time.

Again, you want to blame them for everything that hasn't gone right while at the same time chalking everything up that has - to luck. Can't have it both ways man.

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

The original poster asked why people can be so negative across the board on a team in first place, well there's a bunch of people that have been following this team lose for decades for the 9 out of 10 other times the Jays dice rolling to save money have not worked. When we are finally in a position to win it all, the stands are packed, and the team's merchandise is rolling they expect all the stops to be made to win, because we are not the Red Sox or Yankees, this isn't an opportunity that we get frequently.

Yeah a lot of people have followed the team for decades - including me. Few of them have your level of bitterness and hate.

And stop pretending you are somehow a better. That junk gets old fast.