Brad Treliving needs to go

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Show your work, please. What package would (a) clearly be more acceptable to Buffalo and (b) not gut the Flames so badly they just repeat what Buffalo did with Eichel.

I'll play. Lindholm, Valimaki, Pelletier and a pick

Overpay,Yes but it keeps a divisional rival from getting him.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

I'll play. Lindholm, Valimaki, Pelletier and a pick

Overpay,Yes but it keeps a divisional rival from getting him.

now make the cap work...not even sure this makes the Flames better anyway. You are swapping Eichel for Lindholm and adding 5M in salary

Eichel hasn't played a game yet either so

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by dino7c

now make the cap work...not even sure this makes the Flames better anyway. You are swapping Eichel for Lindholm and adding 5M in salary

Eichel hasn't played a game yet either so

Agreed it's questionable that Eichel at $10M is an improvement on Lindholm at $4.8M.

3 1sts on top of that and it becomes even more questionable.

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

GSVA is Dom Luszczyszyn of The Athletic's player model and this is the last 4 years for each guy.

Lindholm:
18-19: 3.2 GSVA
19-20: 1.6 GSVA
20-21: 1.6 GSVA
21-22: 2.8 GSVA (End of year projected)

Eichel:
18-19: 3.1 GSVA
19-20: 2.8 GSVA
20-21: 0.6 GSVA (Projected 1.6 GSVA if he played full season)
21-22: 2.6 GSVA (Projected had he been healthy this year)

So considering that their actual on-ice impact might not be that different, and since Lindholm costs $4.85M, and Eichel costs $10M...I could see why Treliving might have been hesitant to pull that trigger, and that's before you consider the injury/surgery risk.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Flamesfan05

If the team is not in a solid playoff spot, he needs to sell Arizona style and go for a rebuild

If he doesn’t, there is a good chance Johnny, Tkachuk and Mangi all walk within a year and the Flames are left with no assets to rebuild

The Calgary Flames have never done this. Not before or during Trelivings tenure.

Why even fool yourself?

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

I'll play. Lindholm, Valimaki, Pelletier and a pick

Overpay,Yes but it keeps a divisional rival from getting him.

Why do you think this beats Vegas package?

Assume the picks cancel out

Alex Tuch and Peyton Krebs for Linholm, Vali, and Pelletier

TBH Krebs is a much more attractive prospect then either Vali or Pelletier (Maybe Vali 2 years ago). Giving 2 less desired prospects does not add up to one higher upside (That we know Buffalo loved)

Tuch vs Lindholm

Lasy year:
Tuch had 18 goals and 33 pts
Lindholm had 19 goals and 47 points

Linholm is a better player but Tuch is younger and signed longer.

Even that deal isnt a slam dunk that Vegas takes it over the Flames.

And from everything I have heard Buffalo never asked for Lindholm.

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

WTF does the Lightning situation have to do with it?
I dont care what they did. I want the local heroes to show that they are capable of showing some strategic vision.

Tampa is the model franchise is the point. Did they know the day they took kucherov point and palat that they were set for 2 cups and maybe more or was there some luck with their plan? They haven’t got that lucky of late if it was all plan no luck why has the drafting dried up a bit the last few years. Luck contributes to team success in sports just as much as a solid plan. There is no textbook way to build a team either like some think. This you can’t try to make the playoffs yearly will lead to never being elite is just an opinion and not 100% fact. Even though I prefer a retool and would have loved to go for a guy like Wright doesn’t mean that going a different direction is impossible to build an elite team.

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by Macho0978

Tampa is the model franchise is the point. Did they know the day they took kucherov point and palat that they were set for 2 cups and maybe more or was there some luck with their plan? They haven’t got that lucky of late if it was all plan no luck why has the drafting dried up a bit the last few years. Luck contributes to team success in sports just as much as a solid plan. There is no textbook way to build a team either like some think. This you can’t try to make the playoffs yearly will lead to never being elite is just an opinion and not 100% fact. Even though I prefer a retool and would have loved to go for a guy like Wright doesn’t mean that going a different direction is impossible to build an elite team.

Having Stamkos and Hedman sure helped BEFORE adding those pieces. Those were 1st overall picks

[powderjunkie]

There's always so much pearl clutching about our 4th liners. Is there any evidence to suggest they are particularly bad vs. their comparables around the league? Or that they are particularly responsible for our Ws and Ls in their lower TOI?

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

Why do you think this beats Vegas package?

Assume the picks cancel out

Alex Tuch and Peyton Krebs for Linholm, Vali, and Pelletier

TBH Krebs is a much more attractive prospect then either Vali or Pelletier (Maybe Vali 2 years ago). Giving 2 less desired prospects does not add up to one higher upside (That we know Buffalo loved)

Tuch vs Lindholm

Lasy year:
Tuch had 18 goals and 33 pts
Lindholm had 19 goals and 47 points

Linholm is a better player but Tuch is younger and signed longer.

Even that deal isnt a slam dunk that Vegas takes it over the Flames.

And from everything I have heard Buffalo never asked for Lindholm.

Tuch is what a year younger? Lindholm is a 2013 draft, Tuch is 2014 and also coming off a huge injury that could impact his career going forward.


End of the day the Flames could have added an extra 1st or multiple 2nds, they could have offered 2 of Pelletier, Zary, Coronato, Wolf. They did not need to sign Zadorov, Gudbransen, or Coleman and kept their financial flexibility open.

Getting Eichel would have put this team on a clear path. Maybe it doesn’t work out but filling the biggest hole in this organization for the next 5 years which coincides with the primes of many blue liners, forwards and our goalie is a clear win now move. A clear direction for a directionless team.

[HighLifeMan]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

There's always so much pearl clutching about our 4th liners. Is there any evidence to suggest they are particularly bad vs. their comparables around the league? Or that they are particularly responsible for our Ws and Ls in their lower TOI?

Both Richardson and Lewis are bottom 10 in the league among players with 100 minutes played (Richardson last) in relative CF%, relative xGF%, relative HDCF%, and relative SCF% at five on five. Yes, they struggle immensely.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Tuch is what a year younger? Lindholm is a 2013 draft, Tuch is 2014 and also coming off a huge injury that could impact his career going forward.


End of the day the Flames could have added an extra 1st or multiple 2nds, they could have offered 2 of Pelletier, Zary, Coronato, Wolf. They did not need to sign Zadorov, Gudbransen, or Coleman and kept their financial flexibility open.

Getting Eichel would have put this team on a clear path. Maybe it doesn’t work out but filling the biggest hole in this organization for the next 5 years which coincides with the primes of many blue liners, forwards and our goalie is a clear win now move. A clear direction for a directionless team.

Tuch has 4 more full years of control, Lindholm only has 2.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by redmile04

You say pessimistic , I say realistic.

Right but a pessimistic person doesn't really get to choose what realistic is. No one can.

You can say it's realistic until you're blue in the face but it doesn't have to be my reality.

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

Having Stamkos and Hedman sure helped BEFORE adding those pieces. Those were 1st overall picks

True but the 2007/08 Tampa Bay lightning had 71 points and last in the nhl. Is that not luck to have that good of a record and finish last? They also had Lecavlier with 92 points and St. Louis Richards prospal Boyle. All guys that were part of their previous success. Are you trying to tell me the plan at the start of the year was to go for stamkos? Or did the situation present itself so they went for it?

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by HighLifeMan

Both Richardson and Lewis are bottom 10 in the league among players with 100 minutes played (Richardson last) in relative CF%, relative xGF%, relative HDCF%, and relative SCF% at five on five. Yes, they struggle immensely.

I'm a bit of layman, but aren't 'relative' stats relative to their own teammates (therefore meaningless to compare with other 4th liners)?


In actual CF% (min 10 gp) I see Richardson 29th from bottom among forwards. Lewis 71st from bottom. Pitlick about 170th from bottom.

Assuming an even distribution of the worst 96 regular players you'd expect to have one the bottom 32, another in the bottom 64, and another in the bottom 96.

xGF 5v5 per 60, xGA 5v5
Richardson 7th worst, 215th worst
Lewis ~120th worst, 75th worst
Lucic ~143rd worst, 235th worst


So, Richardson is undoubtedly a bottom feeder...perhaps that's the reason he's played the fewest games and least TOI amongst Flames "regular" forwards (aside from Brett Ritchie with 9 fewer games and 30 secs less ATOI).

Lucic, Dube, Lewis, Pitlick don't seem particularly better/worse than comparable 11th, 10th, 9th, and 8th forwards...

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

I'll play. Lindholm, Valimaki, Pelletier and a pick

Overpay,Yes but it keeps a divisional rival from getting him.

I don't think Buffalo takes that.

[SuperMatt18]

If there is a reason Treliving should probably be fired it's due to how he bled 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round picks in 2016, 2017 and 2018, which is a big reason why the team lacks depth now.

He pushed all the chips in too early, and wasted picks for flawed short term assets that didn't actually help the team win in the short term or the long term.

It's one thing to move a 1st and 2 2nds for somebody like Hamilton but to move the high value picks for veterans with 1-2 deals left on their deal was always a mistake for where this team was in the re-build.

2016 Picks:
2nd Round: Jordan Kyrou (C) - Traded for Brian Elliott
(At least in 2016 we still had two other seconds, but still traded this one that hurts)

2017 Picks:
2nd Round: Alex Formenton (LW) - Traded for Curtis Lazar
3rd Round: Stuart Skinner (G) - Traded for Michael Stone

2018 Picks:
1st Round: Noah Dobson (RD) - Traded for Travis Hamonic
2nd Round: Ruslan Iskhakov (C) - Traded for Travis Hamonic
3rd Round: Niklas Nordgren (RW) - Traded for Mike Smith

In 2017 and 2018 we had 1 pick in the first 3 rounds each of those seasons.

Just hypothetically the Flames don't move those picks and the roster this year could look something like.

Gaudreau - Lindholm - Tkachuk
Mangiapane - Monahan - Kyrou
Formenton - Backlund - Coleman
Lucic - Dube - Lewis
Ritchie

Hanifin - Andersson
Kylington - Tanev
Valimaki - Dobson
Stone

Markstrom
Vladar

That could be the roster right now, and that roster would also have $6.8M of capspace right now. I often think we'd be in much better shape if we didn't make the playoffs and win a round in 14-15, because that season completely messed up expectations for the roster and caused management and ownership to want to accelerate the re-build.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by TOfan

The Calgary Flames have never done this. Not before or during Trelivings tenure.

Why even fool yourself?

Feaster trading Jaybo and Iginal was pretty much this.

Not happening this year though unless things really go south. It can't possibly get that bad.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

Why do you think this beats Vegas package?

Assume the picks cancel out

Alex Tuch and Peyton Krebs for Linholm, Vali, and Pelletier

TBH Krebs is a much more attractive prospect then either Vali or Pelletier (Maybe Vali 2 years ago). Giving 2 less desired prospects does not add up to one higher upside (That we know Buffalo loved)

Tuch vs Lindholm

Lasy year:
Tuch had 18 goals and 33 pts
Lindholm had 19 goals and 47 points

Linholm is a better player but Tuch is younger and signed longer.

Even that deal isnt a slam dunk that Vegas takes it over the Flames.

And from everything I have heard Buffalo never asked for Lindholm.

Also, trading that package for Eichel doesn't help this team.

The only way Eichel to Calgary made sense was if it was HEAVY on futures and the on-roster subtraction was kept to a minimum (read: Monahan or Backlund). The idea had to be to add Eichel to the good parts of this team, and subtracting Lindholm (and the +) to add Eichel likely would have sewered this team in the short term and the long term.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

Also, trading that package for Eichel doesn't help this team.

The only way Eichel to Calgary made sense was if it was HEAVY on futures and the on-roster subtraction was kept to a minimum (read: Monahan or Backlund). The idea had to be to add Eichel to the good parts of this team, and subtracting Lindholm (and the +) to add Eichel likely would have sewered this team in the short term and the long term.

Yeah the magic of the move would have been to have top 2 centres of Eichel and Lindholm and two really elite pairs:
Eichel-Johnny
Lindholm-Tkachuk

You take Lindholm out and suddenly it looks a lot worse. You needed to get him without taking from that top 4 forward group.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Yeah the magic of the move would have been to have top 2 centres of Eichel and Lindholm and two really elite pairs:
Eichel-Johnny
Lindholm-Tkachuk

You take Lindholm out and suddenly it looks a lot worse. You needed to get him without taking from that top 4 forward group.

Exactly.

Eichel-Johnny/Backlund-Tkachuk might be marginally better than what we have today, but it would have further depleted an already near-barren prospect/youth pool. Also, it would have absolutely destroyed the 2021/2022 season as this team would have gone from November 4th until sometime in February with Monahan and Backlund as their #1 and #2 centres...which would have put this team down with Seattle/Buffalo in the standings.

It sucks, and we can certainly blame Treliving for all of his mistakes in building a prospect/youth pool that couldn't compete with a Krebs/Tuch offer, but once this deal got down to it Vegas had what Buffalo wanted.