Alberta Politics & Government Thread 3.0

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Slava

Lol, welcome to progressive taxation and paying for things you don't use. I mean my personal savings as a result of this are also in that $8 range (assuming my tank is completely empty). But that's just how the system works and people subsidize things they don't use. I also paid for a whack of light bulbs to get screwed in to other people's houses a few years ago. It's annoying, but it's how things work.

There are lots of people with trucks, and those tanks are $15-20 for sure. There are also a lot of people who drive for a living or drive a lot in general that this will benefit.

And the end goal, is to help people through a period of high inflation (and probably to win an election, obviously). It's not the only measure they've put forward, but I think it's the one that's not income tested?

This isn't progressive taxation, and it isn't taxing for things I don't use. It's forgoing tax revenue. A fuel tax is a great way to capture external costs to driving rather than having society as a whole pay. It's a user tax. So now, instead of the heaviest users paying it, we all have to cover those costs. It also works to dis-incentivize poor choices(like commuting to an office in an F-150) so you get rid of one barrier that costs society more(roads more crowded, large parking spots, tailpipe emissions) and reduce incentive to use good transport, like transit. You've also starved transit funding, which makes transit worse(as do fewer people using it) and puts more people in single person vehicles.

I've provided loads of reasons why this is a dumb idea, and you haven't really offered anything. Even with the full tax, gas is still pretty affordable. Financial relief could be provided in any number of ways. So again, why is this a good choice? If fuel taxes are bad, and high priced fuel is bad, why don't we subsidize the cost of gas? Why stop at cutting the tax? Why is this the right amount to cut?

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

This isn't progressive taxation, and it isn't taxing for things I don't use. It's forgoing tax revenue. A fuel tax is a great way to capture external costs to driving rather than having society as a whole pay. It's a user tax. So now, instead of the heaviest users paying it, we all have to cover those costs. It also works to dis-incentivize poor choices(like commuting to an office in an F-150) so you get rid of one barrier that costs society more(roads more crowded, large parking spots, tailpipe emissions) and reduce incentive to use good transport, like transit. You've also starved transit funding, which makes transit worse(as do fewer people using it) and puts more people in single person vehicles.

I've provided loads of reasons why this is a dumb idea, and you haven't really offered anything. Even with the full tax, gas is still pretty affordable. Financial relief could be provided in any number of ways. So again, why is this a good choice? If fuel taxes are bad, and high priced fuel is bad, why don't we subsidize the cost of gas? Why stop at cutting the tax? Why is this the right amount to cut?

It's good because most people drive, and it's going to save those people money. That's it. There's no more explanation needed. You don't like it because ypu don't benefit, and that's fine. I don't benefit from it much either, but that's just how things work. We all end up paying for things we don't use, don't benefit directly from and instead other people benefit.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Well, as someone posting from a bus on his way to work... stop driving so much, then. I've said before, my cars are not fuel efficient so high gas prices negatively impact me more than most people in terms of cost of driving but I recognize that higher gas prices is one of the few ways to influence behavior and get people off the damn roads in their driver-only commute more often. These are the correct incentives, Fuzz is right.

Time to start a new political party- the higher taxes party. Gas will be $3 per litre and we'll have more LRT than Dallas. Also, 20% of all road space will be HOV and bus only. Yeah that's right, we're also the pro traffic party. Sell your damn SUV, jerks.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Well, as someone posting from a bus on his way to work... stop driving so much, then. I've said before, my cars are not fuel efficient so high gas prices negatively impact me more than most people in terms of cost of driving but I recognize that higher gas prices is one of the few ways to influence behavior and get people off the damn roads in their driver-only commute more often. These are the correct incentives, Fuzz is right.

Time to start a new political party- the higher taxes party. Gas will be $3 per litre and we'll have more LRT than Dallas. Also, 20% of all road space will be HOV and bus only. Yeah that's right, we're also the pro traffic party. Sell your damn SUV, jerks.

Sure, maybe people drive too much, and that's a different discussion. This is a temporary aid for people to deal with inflation. Shelter, transport and food are the biggest components. The provincial government only has so many levers they can pull to help in those three areas, with fuel being the most obvious.

And as far as the "why doesn't everyone take transit", we know this. It's 12 minutes door-to-door for me to drive to work, or 45-60 minutes to take transit. Never mind the hassles and unsavory characters you get to deal with, it's just not worth it to me.

[PepsiFree]

How long before the reduction in Alberta gas tax results in cheaper food?

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

How long before the reduction in Alberta gas tax results in cheaper food?

It will never happen, the grocery near-monopoly will keep profits the same.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Slava

Sure, maybe people drive too much, and that's a different discussion. This is a temporary aid for people to deal with inflation. Shelter, transport and food are the biggest components. The provincial government only has so many levers they can pull to help in those three areas, with fuel being the most obvious.

And as far as the "why doesn't everyone take transit", we know this. It's 12 minutes door-to-door for me to drive to work, or 45-60 minutes to take transit. Never mind the hassles and unsavory characters you get to deal with, it's just not worth it to me.

If only there were ways to capture revenue and direct it to transit to improve it for everyone, thus making it a viable choice? Oh, if only...

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Well, as someone posting from a bus on his way to work... stop driving so much, then. I've said before, my cars are not fuel efficient so high gas prices negatively impact me more than most people in terms of cost of driving but I recognize that higher gas prices is one of the few ways to influence behavior and get people off the damn roads in their driver-only commute more often. These are the correct incentives, Fuzz is right.

Time to start a new political party- the higher taxes party. Gas will be $3 per litre and we'll have more LRT than Dallas. Also, 20% of all road space will be HOV and bus only. Yeah that's right, we're also the pro traffic party. Sell your damn SUV, jerks.

It is my god given right the sit in traffic for 1-2 hours a day!

[BlackArcher101]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Well, as someone posting from a bus on his way to work... stop driving so much, then.

Would totally do that if our system didn't think everyone works downtown. Work anywhere else? HA, good luck. Taking transit would take 3 hours out of my day.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

If only there were ways to capture revenue and direct it to transit to improve it for everyone, thus making it a viable choice? Oh, if only...

To help with inflation over six months.

You just seem to ignore this rather significant factor here. This isn't a permanent solution. Sure, if we started years ago and had an adequate transit system in place so that people actually opted for that ahead of driving, you're in a different spot. But we're looking for an impact in the next say 6 months. Can you build a transit system and get mass adoption in that timeframe?

[Roughneck]

Will inflation not be a problem anymore in six months?

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Slava

To help with inflation over six months.

You just seem to ignore this rather significant factor here. This isn't a permanent solution. Sure, if we started years ago and had an adequate transit system in place so that people actually opted for that ahead of driving, you're in a different spot. But we're looking for an impact in the next say 6 months. Can you build a transit system and get mass adoption in that timeframe?

Helping inflation by...fuelling inflation?

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Roughneck

Will inflation not be a problem anymore in six months?

OK, say it's a year. Can you build a transit system in a year? I think we're going on a decade for the Green line, so surely you can see my point here.

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Helping inflation by...fuelling inflation?

Well that's a whole other issue. I personally question handing out money, but the feds have done it, the province has done it and it's like anyone has stepped up with a policy of doing anything else.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Slava

OK, say it's a year. Can you build a transit system in a year? I think we're going on a decade for the Green line, so surely you can see my point here.

Well that's a whole other issue. I personally question handing out money, but the feds have done it, the province has done it and it's like anyone has stepped up with a policy of doing anything else.

But why stop the gas tax pause in 6 mnoths or a year? If it is to help with inflation, then it doesn't make sense to cancel it, because the inflation is already baked in. You haven't explained why the 6 month policy makes any sense, because prices aren't going to drop, and if the government isn't raising public sector wages with inflation level increases, they are admitting wages aren't going to rise to close the gap. The policy makes on logical sense(other than a vote buy). I'm not sure how you don't understand that.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

But why stop the gas tax pause in 6 mnoths or a year? If it is to help with inflation, then it doesn't make sense to cancel it, because the inflation is already baked in. You haven't explained why the 6 month policy makes any sense, because prices aren't going to drop, and if the government isn't raising public sector wages with inflation level increases, they are admitting wages aren't going to rise to close the gap. The policy makes on logical sense(other than a vote buy). I'm not sure how you don't understand that.

I think the point of these temporary measures is to help with the volatility and significant rise in a shorter period that we've seen. I do think it's temporary though and we probably saw the peak last summer.

But one other point here...it's not my policy and I'm not really too interested in defending it as being amazing. I don't have to explain this for them. Personally, I'm on the 100% consumption tax and zero income tax train, which this is the exact opposite.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by Slava

Sure, maybe people drive too much, and that's a different discussion. This is a temporary aid for people to deal with inflation. Shelter, transport and food are the biggest components. The provincial government only has so many levers they can pull to help in those three areas, with fuel being the most obvious.

This doesn't actually help with any of those things, really. I mean it might feel like it takes the edge off for people when they fill up but the actual impact of it... I'm skeptical.

And as far as the "why doesn't everyone take transit", we know this. It's 12 minutes door-to-door for me to drive to work, or 45-60 minutes to take transit. Never mind the hassles and unsavory characters you get to deal with, it's just not worth it to me.

Right, I thought I was clear: one of the policy planks of my new political party is to close enough roads to passenger vehicles so that it takes 45-60 minutes door to door for you to drive to work. There, I fixed it!

And yeah, I know. It's obviously a bit of a tragedy of the commons thing, if everyone took transit, it would take virtually time to get anywhere either by car OR by bus. But I always think the best solution is more transit, and a hybrid system that involves a whole lot of park and ride... a train line that passes through every major area and buses to those hubs with massive amounts of subsidized parking to leave your car for the day, along with a strong security presence so it's not an all-you-can-eat catalytic converter buffet.

... Actually, better make gas $4/l to cover all of this.

[you&me]

Originally Posted by Slava

I think the point of these temporary measures is to help with the volatility and significant rise in a shorter period that we've seen. I do think it's temporary though and we probably saw the peak last summer.

But one other point here...it's not my policy and I'm not really too interested in defending it as being amazing. I don't have to explain this for them. Personally, I'm on the 100% consumption tax and zero income tax train, which this is the exact opposite.

I agree completely with your position of income (booo) & consumption (yaaay) taxes...

Which is why it's probably strange that I can somewhat agree with the reduction of the gas tax from the perspective of: If people want (/need!) the government to do something about inflation and cost of living, about the simplest thing they can do is cancel a tax. It's a real-time lever they can pull.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by Slava

To help with inflation over six months.

What inflation? Gas prices are the exact same price they were a year ago.

If they want to give everyone money to reduce the effects of inflation (which is in itself a ridiculous proposition since it increases the money supply to spend on other things), why not at least target something that is more expensive than it was a year ago?

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by you&me

I agree completely with your position of income (booo) & consumption (yaaay) taxes...

Which is why it's probably strange that I can somewhat agree with the reduction of the gas tax from the perspective of: If people want (/need!) the government to do something about inflation and cost of living, about the simplest thing they can do is cancel a tax. It's a real-time lever they can pull.

First, I'd like to say I am ambivalent about the carbon tax, and all taxes.
That said, I get the sense that most people spend money to their absolute limit no matter how much they have. Outside of the folks who live in actual poverty, most people would simply spend that money on more things. Now, people are allowed to spend their money how they please, but I have a hard time sympathizing with people who drive brand new gas guzzlers as commuters complaining about cost of living.

Of course there are people who are forced to change their diet and their living arrangements because of the cost of living. Never the less, some personal accountability for your finances is still required.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by opendoor

What inflation? Gas prices are the exact same price they were a year ago.

If they want to give everyone money to reduce the effects of inflation (which is in itself a ridiculous proposition since it increases the money supply to spend on other things), why not at least target something that is more expensive than it was a year ago?

Well politically, the ship has sailed on this one. I argued this in the federal thread months ago, but every party would send out money. In Alberta, the NDP was saying yesterday that the funds should be sent to people ASAP. So...while inflation pretty clearly peaked last year, and the response is too slow, the government is going to respond.

As I mentioned before, there are three main drivers. The province has a lever in one area. They can't do much about food prices. they can't meaningfully impact costs of shelter (which I would argue has been addressed by the BoC anyway). So....we're left with transportation.