Russia invades Ukraine

[burn_this_city]

Here's that thread I posted rolled up for easier digestion. I thought I had read it entirely a few days ago but I missed some of it because twitter hide part of it.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1...455654913.html

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by Sliver

I wouldn't expect them to contribute significantly. Death by a thousand cuts is the strategy. If it helps a little, then that's a win.

Your conceptually correct in what you're saying, but we're in triage mode here. Tomorrow's relations are irrelevant compared to the more pressing need of stopping the slaughter of innocents. It's hilariously weird to be more focused on being able to bro out with Russians three years from now versus stopping them from killing their neighbours today.

I see things like athlete bans being just as likely or more likely to make things worse now, and also to make things worse in the long run. That may or may not be correct. It's an empirical issue that I don't think either of us currently have presented evidence to settle one way or the other. I intuitively disagree with you, but would be open to changing my mind if there were persuasive evidence.

I do however object to the suggestion that I'm focused on broing out with the Russians who are killing people today. I'm not. That's not all Russians. Someone having Russian nationality doesn't make them a murderer or a supporter of violence by virtue of that nationality alone.

Frankly though, I do think people from all places being able to “bro out” together should be the goal. That's a future we should always be working towards.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

I see things like athlete bans being just as likely or more likely to make things worse now, and also to make things worse in the long run. That may or may not be correct. It's an empirical issue that I don't think either of us currently have presented evidence to settle one way or the other. I intuitively disagree with you, but would be open to changing my mind if there were persuasive evidence.

I do however object to the suggestion that I'm focused on broing out with the Russians who are killing people today. I'm not. That's not all Russians. Someone having Russian nationality doesn't make them a murderer or a supporter of violence by virtue of that nationality alone.

Frankly though, I do think people from all places being able to “bro out” together should be the goal. That's a future we should always be working towards.

Holy cow.

I, too, hope for a world where we all sing Kumbaya, but, like, I live in reality.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Firebot

Lots of 'unfortunate spontaneous accidents' happening all over Russia today.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1517080014868692992

https://twitter.com/user/status/1517118119784951808

Of note the Tver MoD building is where the most recent ICBM launched by Putin yesterday was designed.

This makes me feel a bit vulnerable. Tver is relatively close to Moscow, about an hour on a speedy train. What next? Can Ukranians retaliate with bombing train stations and such?...

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Pointman

This makes me feel a bit vulnerable. Tver is relatively close to Moscow, about an hour on a speedy train. What next? Can Ukranians retaliate with bombing train stations and such?...

They have every right to at this point.

[you&me]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

I see things like athlete bans being just as likely or more likely to make things worse now, and also to make things worse in the long run. That may or may not be correct. It's an empirical issue that I don't think either of us currently have presented evidence to settle one way or the other. I intuitively disagree with you, but would be open to changing my mind if there were persuasive evidence.

I do however object to the suggestion that I'm focused on broing out with the Russians who are killing people today. I'm not. That's not all Russians. Someone having Russian nationality doesn't make them a murderer or a supporter of violence by virtue of that nationality alone.

Frankly though, I do think people from all places being able to “bro out” together should be the goal. That's a future we should always be working towards.

Don't take this the wrong way, but is your stance on this heavily influenced by being in China? Your defensiveness of Russian citizens is coming across a bit like you're talking your book, i.e. you might be in a similar position if things go sideways with the nation of Taiwan ().

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Russian athletes should absolutely be banned. Some guy can't play his game? Boo-fataing-hoo. The upside of removing the privilege of just one high-profile individual to hit a ball with a racket could open thousands of people's eyes to how the invasion is viewed by the rest of the world. It's, like, the cheapest and easiest way to send a message to the Russian people ever. You remove enough privileges from enough high-profile Russians and the general populace can't help but notice. It costs $0, but it could save lives in the long run as - hopefully - domestic support within Russia erodes.

The downside is one guy can't play a game. Given the horrors Ukrainians are facing at the hands of Russians on a daily basis, I can't believe people are worried about some stupid Russian athletes. Send them home with a message they're not welcome in the rest of the world so long as their leaders continue killing people and destroying a country.

It has the opposite effect. Any anti-Russian actions by the west are widely publicized by Putin propaganda. Average Russian people feel like "Oh well, the west hates us anyway, nothing we can do about it, we might as well rally around Putin". This creates a us vs them mentality in Russia.

[fulham]

Originally Posted by Pointman

This makes me feel a bit vulnerable. Tver is relatively close to Moscow, about an hour on a speedy train. What next? Can Ukranians retaliate with bombing train stations and such?...

Its not exactly rape, and a genocide, cheered on by the general population. Russians should feel a consequence. Given Russias actions I don't put it past them carrying it out, hard to sell your people on a quick de-nazification thats "going well" with the bodies piling up. Putin could use a gulf of Tonkin to justify his escalating actions, straight from the US playbook.

[Itse]

To me the line isn't that hard to draw.

If you winning would result in playing the Russian national anthem, then you should obviously be banned. If you're performing under the Russian flag, also banned. If your team is formed of Russian citizens, you're banned. If your team is based in Russia or owned by Russian nationals, also banned. If you waive the Russian flag as an athlete, also banned.

But if you're, for example, living and working in a different country and representing for example New York or Washington, then that's fine.

It's not about nationality, it's whether your work is connected to Russia as a nation.

You can also ask are they paying taxes to Russia. Paying taxes to the Russian governement is obviously bad currently, no one should do that if they can avoid it.

Ovechkin working in the US is representing Washington and supporting the US economy. Unless he starts flag waiving, I'm fine with him working there. In fact the way Ovechkin has become humble and quiet about his previous support for Putin is to me pretty effective propaganda in itself. It shows that his true allegiance ultimately lies here where he gets his western paychecks.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Holy cow.

I, too, hope for a world where we all sing Kumbaya, but, like, I live in reality.

I'm not convinced believing that banning Russian athletes is going to contribute at all to ending war is living in reality. As I said, I'm open to changing my mind on the basis of evidence, but I haven't yet seen any.

Obviously the war is terrible and needs to be stopped, and obviously this point about banning athletes etc. is a tiny issue in the bigger context. We disagree on the value of this minor point.

Do we really disagree on the long-term objective of people from all different nations being able to get along with each other?

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

I see things like athlete bans being just as likely or more likely to make things worse now, and also to make things worse in the long run. That may or may not be correct. It's an empirical issue that I don't think either of us currently have presented evidence to settle one way or the other. I intuitively disagree with you, but would be open to changing my mind if there were persuasive evidence.

I do however object to the suggestion that I'm focused on broing out with the Russians who are killing people today. I'm not. That's not all Russians. Someone having Russian nationality doesn't make them a murderer or a supporter of violence by virtue of that nationality alone.

Frankly though, I do think people from all places being able to “bro out” together should be the goal. That's a future we should always be working towards.

Putin still has tremendous support within Russia. You see those interviews with random people, and they support Russian actions. Minor actions like banning athletes only serves to shed a little light on the situation, and perhaps change a few minds. Their is no benefit to the rest of the world to allow Russian athletes at their events. The drawback is you give a chance for Russian pride. The world can deny that, and should. People are getting raped and killed daily, and if an athlete banning changes even one Russian mind, makes one person look into the reasons a little deeper, it's succeeded.

[Leondros]

Originally Posted by you&me

Don't take this the wrong way, but is your stance on this heavily influenced by being in China? Your defensiveness of Russian citizens is coming across a bit like you're talking your book, i.e. you might be in a similar position if things go sideways with the nation of Taiwan ().

This did cross my mind as well...

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

I'm not convinced believing that banning Russian athletes is going to contribute at all to ending war is living in reality. As I said, I'm open to changing my mind on the basis of evidence, but I haven't yet seen any.

Obviously the war is terrible and needs to be stopped, and obviously this point about banning athletes etc. is a tiny issue in the bigger context. We disagree on the value of this minor point.

Do we really disagree on the long-term objective of people from all different nations being able to get along with each other?

That can't happen with someone like Putin in charge, so wishing for it is fantasy. Sustained pressure in all forms is the best option right now. It's not like these athletes are being locked up abroad, they are just being denied a chance at glory. They have options.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

They have every right to at this point.

No they don't. There's no such thing as a right to kill people. If Ukranian bombs will start to fall on the head of my two years old, do you expect me to say "Too bad, my son, it's a well-deserved punishment, our troops shouldn't have committed all those crimes". Of course not. It will become a fight for survival. Any concepts of "rightfulness" and "fairness" would be irrelevant at that point.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

I'm not convinced believing that banning Russian athletes is going to contribute at all to ending war is living in reality. As I said, I'm open to changing my mind on the basis of evidence, but I haven't yet seen any.

Obviously the war is terrible and needs to be stopped, and obviously this point about banning athletes etc. is a tiny issue in the bigger context. We disagree on the value of this minor point.

Do we really disagree on the long-term objective of people from all different nations being able to get along with each other?

In the land of make believe, yes, we agree with each other on that.

In reality, it's absurdly and obviously impossible. Different groups have different needs and wants that will always run into conflict with each other. What is good for me may be detrimental to you.

And to take it back to the current situation, I'm less concerned about getting along with Russia and more concerned with pulling literally every lever we can to stop this war.

[fulham]

Originally Posted by Pointman

No they don't. There's no such thing as a right to kill people. If Ukranian bombs will start to fall on the head of my two years old, do you expect me to say "Too bad, my son, it's a well-deserved punishment, our troops shouldn't have committed all those crimes". Of course not. It will become a fight for survival. Any concepts of "rightfulness" and "fairness" would be irrelevant at that point.

"Any concepts of "rightfulness" and "fairness" would be irrelevant at that point"



What's fair about Russia actions? What would make you personally off limits for a cruise missile based on Russias actions?

[Leondros]

Originally Posted by Pointman

No they don't. There's no such thing as a right to kill people. If Ukranian bombs will start to fall on the head of my two years old, do you expect me to say "Too bad, my son, it's a well-deserved punishment, our troops shouldn't have committed all those crimes". Of course not. It will become a fight for survival. Any concepts of "rightfulness" and "fairness" would be irrelevant at that point.

Your country is at war… laws no longer apply when your country commits war crimes. You don’t get to enjoy the benefits of global rule of law and then as a country break every rule in the book. I think you need look internally as a nation and see if you really should be accepting of your leaders decisions. Or, you can play the ignorance is bliss card and say it’s out of your hands and nothing you can do. Atleast some people are making their voices heard.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Pointman

No they don't. There's no such thing as a right to kill people. If Ukranian bombs will start to fall on the head of my two years old, do you expect me to say "Too bad, my son, it's a well-deserved punishment, our troops shouldn't have committed all those crimes". Of course not. It will become a fight for survival. Any concepts of "rightfulness" and "fairness" would be irrelevant at that point.

Okay, I get that we're really far away from your reality, but are you saying that the country your country attacked shouldn't be allowed to fight you back?

Like, isn't that the obvious risk you take as a country when you invade somebody is them fighting back?

[Geraldsh]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

Do we really disagree on the long-term objective of people from all different nations being able to get along with each other?

We all agree on peaceful co-existence but the onus is on Russia to change behaviour before any overtures from us are even considered. Until then we must escalate our actions in every way possible, even so far as banning athletes.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by you&me

Don't take this the wrong way, but is your stance on this heavily influenced by being in China? Your defensiveness of Russian citizens is coming across a bit like you're talking your book, i.e. you might be in a similar position if things go sideways with the nation of Taiwan ().

Of course we can say the same about living in Canada. I mean, there's a reason that outside of NATO and close US allies, other countries aren't jumping in to take action against Russia. To most of the rest of the world, this war and its atrocities aren't any different than all the other wars of aggression and atrocities that happen, many of which the West has played a fairly significant role in starting and/or supporting.