Alberta Politics & Government Thread 3.0

[Rutuu]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Stang

Haha. Good one. We’re paying the same price, oil companies have taken the “gesture” straight into their pockets, and the government has lost revenue.

“Helping Albertans” or something though.

To those posters that have been correcting Yoho's information as a service, what do you do when you get a misinformation reply to his original troll?

Ha.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Stang

Haha. Good one. We’re paying the same price, oil companies have taken the “gesture” straight into their pockets, and the government has lost revenue.

“Helping Albertans” or something though.

Provide evidence to back up this claim. There were a few weeks last year where things looked weird but the stickiness of Alberta prices was also occurring in interior BC so was unrelated to Alberta policies.

So if you want to play oil companies are not passing on these savings you need to support it with evidence. You can look at the gas buddy charts for last year to see the savings being passed on relative to BC

It’s stupid policy but it does do what it intends to do

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

This post seems like a lot of fun. I guess how much fun depends first and foremost on how you define “significant stimulus”. Next it depends on how many people are going to save $15-$20 on a tank of gas with a savings of $0.13/litre. Then you’ve got the whole question of why one would bring up low income transit passes as a reason to justify creating more savings for people who aren’t low income. Then as a bonus we get the puzzle of trying to figure out how a person driving a Honda Civic couldn’t possibly benefit less than someone filling up a big pickup truck or Escalade who drives an equal or even lesser amount than they do.

Naw, Slava is right. In fact, we should probably just get rid of all taxes and let the economy stimulate us out of debt!

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Naw, Slava is right. In fact, we should probably just get rid of all taxes and let the economy stimulate us out of debt!

Well there’s no halfway. I mean why try to have a rational discussion about things?

The truth is, people with kids are among the top drivers, and that gas tax reduction is a good policy to help people through this. You might not like tax cuts in general, and I can see that side, but as a temporary measure it's not horrible.

[Fuzz]

What's the end goal then? I presume this expires just after the election(so cynical!). But inflation has factored in even if the rate drops back down, so if you want to pretend this is relief, what changes to allow you to say "ok, we don't need this anymore"? Wages rise to match inflation? Is the government signaling they'll be raising public sector wages so they can remove the fuel tax relief?

Sorry, but it doesn't make any sense as a sound policy, unless you are fundamentally against fuel taxes(but then why stop there?).

Also, your numbers were amusing. In our reasonably sized car, it'd save 8 dollars a tank. So, maybe $10 a month, if we be generous assume distribution won't take a cent or 2, and retailers won't also edge a few cents out. Why should I contribute to saving spending dollars for people who bought ridiculous vehicles, living in stupid communities far from everything they need?

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

What's the end goal then? I presume this expires just after the election(so cynical!). But inflation has factored in even if the rate drops back down, so if you want to pretend this is relief, what changes to allow you to say "ok, we don't need this anymore"? Wages rise to match inflation? Is the government signaling they'll be raising public sector wages so they can remove the fuel tax relief?

Sorry, but it doesn't make any sense as a sound policy, unless you are fundamentally against fuel taxes(but then why stop there?).

Also, your numbers were amusing. In our reasonably sized car, it'd save 8 dollars a tank. So, maybe $10 a month, if we be generous assume distribution won't take a cent or 2, and retailers won't also edge a few cents out. Why should I contribute to saving spending dollars for people who bought ridiculous vehicles, living in stupid communities far from everything they need?

Lol, welcome to progressive taxation and paying for things you don't use. I mean my personal savings as a result of this are also in that $8 range (assuming my tank is completely empty). But that's just how the system works and people subsidize things they don't use. I also paid for a whack of light bulbs to get screwed in to other people's houses a few years ago. It's annoying, but it's how things work.

There are lots of people with trucks, and those tanks are $15-20 for sure. There are also a lot of people who drive for a living or drive a lot in general that this will benefit.

And the end goal, is to help people through a period of high inflation (and probably to win an election, obviously). It's not the only measure they've put forward, but I think it's the one that's not income tested?

[Nancy]

What savings? I went to fill up today and the price was $.11 more than my last fill up ($1.30 vs $1.19 last time.)

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Nancy

What savings? I went to fill up today and the price was $.11 more than my last fill up ($1.30 vs $1.19 last time.)

It looks like the gas companies all raised their prices to prepare for this. Then when it came into effect they barely lowered their prices. So they won twice!

[Jimmy Stang]

Originally Posted by GGG

Provide evidence to back up this claim. There were a few weeks last year where things looked weird but the stickiness of Alberta prices was also occurring in interior BC so was unrelated to Alberta policies.

So if you want to play oil companies are not passing on these savings you need to support it with evidence. You can look at the gas buddy charts for last year to see the savings being passed on relative to BC

It’s stupid policy but it does do what it intends to do

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by GGG

Provide evidence to back up this claim. There were a few weeks last year where things looked weird but the stickiness of Alberta prices was also occurring in interior BC so was unrelated to Alberta policies.

So if you want to play oil companies are not passing on these savings you need to support it with evidence. You can look at the gas buddy charts for last year to see the savings being passed on relative to BC

It’s stupid policy but it does do what it intends to do

Does the bolded necessarily prove anything? I honestly don't know anything about retail distribution for those areas of BC, but isn't it possible that the price weirdness was in fact linked?

[Dynamic]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Stang

Haha nothing to see here…..this planet is depressing sometimes.

[kermitology]

Originally Posted by Nancy

What savings? I went to fill up today and the price was $.11 more than my last fill up ($1.30 vs $1.19 last time.)

Didn’t the national carbon tax increase on January 1st?

[BlackArcher101]

Originally Posted by kermitology

Didn’t the national carbon tax increase on January 1st?

From $0.1105/L litre to $0.1431/L in April 2023 (for Alberta). Rate increases are always in April.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Does the bolded necessarily prove anything? I honestly don't know anything about retail distribution for those areas of BC, but isn't it possible that the price weirdness was in fact linked?

Sure, but it means it was independent of taxation policy.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Stang

What conclusion do you draw from the chart and one key days of taxation policy changes that you feel we’re not passed onto to the consumers and how do the taxation policies in other provinces affect the average. I think you are showing the December average price which to my knowledge there were no major tax policy changes.

So it appear Alberta had lower gas prices for longer than the national average but ended the year and started the month in a similar spot. You can just start to see the increase in gap due to the Jan 1 23 policy change. I don’t see a failure to pass savings along by this graph. What to you see it as evidence of?

Go look at the 18 month chart and look at the delta between Canada -Alberta fas
Price in 2021 compared to today. Also the gas tax difference is 4.5 cents per litre not 13 cents as we weren’t previously collecting the full amount.

[Dynamic]

Originally Posted by GGG

What conclusion do you draw from the chart and one key days of taxation policy changes that you feel we’re not passed onto to the consumers and how do the taxation policies in other provinces affect the average. I think you are showing the December average price which to my knowledge there were no major tax policy changes.

So it appear Alberta had lower gas prices for longer than the national average but ended the year and started the month in a similar spot. You can just start to see the increase in gap due to the Jan 1 23 policy change. I don’t see a failure to pass savings along by this graph. What to you see it as evidence of?

Maybe I’m missing something obvious but my first take was the policy change doesn’t take effect until January 1st so the little spike a few days at the end of December is not normal market driven influences.

[Yoho]

Originally Posted by Dynamic

Maybe I’m missing something obvious but my first take was the policy change doesn’t take effect until January 1st so the little spike a few days at the end of December is not normal market driven influences.

Could it possibly be fuel prices fluctuate up and down? Or were you thinking the UCP announcement meant the price at the Costco pump was to be locked at $1.08/L until July?

https://twitter.com/user/status/1610284108818563074

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Dynamic

Maybe I’m missing something obvious but my first take was the policy change doesn’t take effect until January 1st so the little spike a few days at the end of December is not normal market driven influences.

Could be, but the overall December spread between Canada and Alberta kept widening so the 10 cent or so jump was really just getting it back to normal spreads that the roc had seen the previous two weeks.

I thinking taking the daily average delays in between policy changes so at the end of Jan look back compared against October to December would tell us.

To clarify my thoughts it’s that in the previous tax cuts there wasn’t evidence of gouging and we don’t yet have evidence today of gouging. That evidence may happen over the next month but given previous behaviour it’s unlikely.

[Jimmy Stang]

Originally Posted by GGG

What conclusion do you draw from the chart and one key days of taxation policy changes that you feel we’re not passed onto to the consumers and how do the taxation policies in other provinces affect the average. I think you are showing the December average price which to my knowledge there were no major tax policy changes.

So it appear Alberta had lower gas prices for longer than the national average but ended the year and started the month in a similar spot. You can just start to see the increase in gap due to the Jan 1 23 policy change. I don’t see a failure to pass savings along by this graph. What to you see it as evidence of?

Go look at the 18 month chart and look at the delta between Canada -Alberta fas
Price in 2021 compared to today. Also the gas tax difference is 4.5 cents per litre not 13 cents as we weren’t previously collecting the full amount.

But to the layperson, after weeks of declining prices, the timing and optics are suspicious. In the the province where part of the gas tax is being paused, prices went up 4 cents per day for the last 3 days prior to the tax being paused. Plus the prices on the 1st stayed the same, despite the tax being paused (which is effectively another 4.5 cent "increase").

The chart is just illustrating that Calgary saw increases on the eve of the tax pause that were many times greater than the national average in the 3 days prior. Coincidence? Market forces? Refining costs spiking (that's a common one)? Overdue correction? Of course prices fluctuate, and we are still paying a lot less than the national average and what we were paying previously. The complaint isn't what we are paying, but the possibility of the UCP's "gesture" being completely obfuscated by a last-minute flurry of price increases.

The timing is just suspect, and the consumer has no way of investigating the price setting process and the margins. The UCP was going to investigate this, but that fell off of the radar. So now we're just with the status quo of "trust us - this is a coincidence".

[Superflyer]

People are saying that we just got 15 cents off but really we just got 4.5 cents off as that was all that was added back to the tax in October.
The original rate of 13 cent tax was removed April 1st and then on Oct 1 4.5 cents was added back because everything was good again in the world.


https://www.alberta.ca/about-tax-lev...est-rates.aspx