Russia invades Ukraine

[burn_this_city]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1517108150838640640

[burn_this_city]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

Explain relevancy to topic of Wimbledon and Russian athletes, please.

Russians pride themselves on sports, they cheat in the Olympics and generate a lot of nationalist sentiment from winning. Starving them of some domestic propaganda about the greatness of Russia seems to be worthwhile.

I don't know what you know of the conflict, but they are destroying entire cities in the south. Banning some Russian celebrities from playing whack ball seems pretty benign in comparison.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Swift

I'm still figuring out my own stance on this, but to play devil's advocate... where's the tipping point for you? What's the point where you'd say "well, okay that's a bit too far?"

Banning all Russian national sportspeople? Boohoo, can't play sport.

Banning all Russian nationals working in the entertainment industry, for instance? Boohoo, can't make movies and TV shows.

Banning all Russian nationals working in any industry you want to choose? Boohoo, can't make money.

How about just banning all Russian nationals from entering the country? Boohoo, can't work or go on vacation.

I know, I know, slippery slope...

And does it matter if any of these people being banned are outspoken Putin critics or critical of the invasion?

Fair questions.

I guess I'm not that concerned about the careers of individual Russians right now or the games some Russians like to play for money while the lives of Ukrainians are being snuffed out by the Russian state.

Where do you draw the line, though? IDK. I think starting with disallowing participation for the famous/high-profile Russians gives the best bang for no-buck. Targeting Vlad who works in the back of some lab off 32nd Ave NE who analyses soil samples for Alberta Environment? Not too worried about him. Ovechkin, though? There's a famous guy who will get ears to perk up in the Motherland.

A lot of grey area and it's going to be somewhat unfair, but again, the Ukrainians are facing far worse so I don't think now is the time to be concerned about the feelings of guys who play games for a living who can just go back to Russia and keep playing their game if they want.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Swift

I'm still figuring out my own stance on this, but to play devil's advocate... where's the tipping point for you? What's the point where you'd say "well, okay that's a bit too far?"

Banning all Russian national sportspeople? Boohoo, can't play sport.

Banning all Russian nationals working in the entertainment industry, for instance? Boohoo, can't make movies and TV shows.

Banning all Russian nationals working in any industry you want to choose? Boohoo, can't make money.

How about just banning all Russian nationals from entering the country? Boohoo, can't work or go on vacation.

I know, I know, slippery slope...

And does it matter if any of these people being banned are outspoken Putin critics or critical of the invasion?

We all need to keep in mind that often the people most victimized by these dictators are their own citizens. If we want to encourage Russians to speak out against Putin, we also need to be prepared for the fact that many of these dissenters may have to flee Russia.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Well YMMV as to how desirable that is to a society if you accept your first premise, which I don't.

I think sowing discontent with the war amongst the Russian population is part of an overall strategy to hasten an end to the war and erode support with the goal of saving lives in Ukraine. But twist that however you want.

The economic sanctions Russians are already living under have far more impact on their lives than any bans on athletes would have. Their money is worthless, they can’t travel, there are severe shortages of goods. In that context, do you honestly think Russian tennis players not being able to play in Wimbledon would move the needle in public support for the regime?

Liberal Russians are already opposed to the war. And the hardcore nationalists Putin relies on are happy to make this a Russia vs the World struggle. Think of ultra-patriotic American rednecks. When France, Germany, China, and India come out against something the USA does on the global stage, does it weaken their support for their military? Or make it stronger?

Maintaining the economic sanctions is worthwhile because there’s reason to believe they might undermine Putin’s regime. Symbolic gestures won’t achieve anything in Russia, and are for domestic consumption only.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by Sliver

It's a defensive strategy to erode support for a murderous invasion of a neighbouring country. The west is supplying arms, intelligence and expertise. I think we can also help on the other front of chipping away at the morale of the Russian people.

Call it tribalism if you want, but I'd call it a piece of a defensive strategy against an invading force.

Is there evidence of this type of action affecting the morale of the Russian people in the desired way? Haven't seen evidence either way, but I think it would be more likely for people who are pro-Putin to respond with a feeling of “#### the West” rather than “#### Putin”. People who are against Putin now seem unlikely to rally and overthrow government because they can't watch their favourite athletes in international competition.

It doesn't seem to me like the type of action that moves the world closer to positive post-war relationships. It seems like the type of action that will further entrench divisions and which validates the tribalist views of some people who would gladly discriminate against Russian people in areas of life unrelated to war and on the basis of nothing other than their nationality.

[you&me]

Originally Posted by opendoor

Confirming their perceived victimhood by enacting xenophobic policies doesn't sow discontent; it just supports what Putin is saying (i.e. the West is out to destroy Russia).

I mean, who cares about a tennis player; if Wimbledon wants to ban Russians, whatever. But people talking about firing all Russian nationals from their jobs en masse like that's a normal and reasonable thing is downright insane.

Who said this?

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by opendoor

Confirming their perceived victimhood by enacting xenophobic policies doesn't sow discontent; it just supports what Putin is saying (i.e. the West is out to destroy Russia).

I mean, who cares about a tennis player; if Wimbledon wants to ban Russians, whatever. But people talking about firing all Russian nationals from their jobs en masse like that's a normal and reasonable thing is downright insane.

Then why are all western companies leaving Russia? Why are there unprecedented sanctions? Why are Russians cut-off from global trade? All these things affect everyday Russians and are targeted at the people to sow discontent with their government. But if a Russian happens to reside outside Russia's borders he's off limits?

We are hitting Russia economically on every front we can. Maybe we should take it another step forward and hammer every single high-profile Russian we can find. Like we're already doing with the billionaire class. Let's hit the multi-millionaire class, too.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

Is there evidence of this type of action affecting the morale of the Russian people in the desired way? Haven't seen evidence either way, but I think it would be more likely for people who are pro-Putin to respond with a feeling of “#### the West” rather than “#### Putin”. People who are against Putin now seem unlikely to rally and overthrow government because they can't watch their favourite athletes in international competition.

It doesn't seem to me like the type of action that moves the world closer to positive post-war relationships. It seems like the type of action that will further entrench divisions and which validates the tribalist views of some people who would gladly discriminate against Russian people in areas of life unrelated to war and on the basis of nothing other than their nationality.

Dude. That's tomorrow's problem. I'm quite sure the Ukrainians being bombed today aren't concerned with "positive post-war relationships" right now. That's a very strange take.

Let's leave no stone unturned in stopping this madness and then worry about building a positive relationship.

[fulham]

Originally Posted by you&me

Who said this?

Ive never seen that argument either. All though I do have a Russian co-worker who claims Bucha and everything else fake news, he goes out of his way to tell us. His repercussions are losing every non Russian friend he has, and I don't doubt that if we every have to let anyone go it will be him.

Punish privileged Russian citizens IE athletes, and oligarchs from their countries vanity projects. Id have no issue with a blanket Russian player ban. Its not fair, I get that, but its also not fair to be raped and killed by a Russian invading force.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by you&me

Who said this?

These were in response this question:

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Do you support firing of Russians in your workplace based on their ethnicity?

Originally Posted by GordonBlue

If we had any employees from Russia that currently still lived there and only traveled to work at my company on Monday and then went home at the end of each week, then yes. fire them and ship them home.

Originally Posted by Jordan!

Russian Heritage / U.S. Citizens? No

Current Russian Citizen contractors? Absolutely

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

Russians pride themselves on sports, they cheat in the Olympics and generate a lot of nationalist sentiment from winning. Starving them of some domestic propaganda about the greatness of Russia seems to be worthwhile.

I don't know what you know of the conflict, but they are destroying entire cities in the south. Banning some Russian celebrities from playing whack ball seems pretty benign in comparison.

It actually seems like the kind of thing that provides even more powerful material for propaganda to rally support against the West, not less.

I understand what the Russian government and military are doing in Ukraine and I am totally opposed to it. The position I come at if from is one of viewing war itself, along with the conditions and choices that lead to war, as the enemy. Tribalism is one of those conditions that leads to war, and I see something like banning Russian athletes from Wimbledon as an action that does virtually nothing to stop the war but which validates and reinforces tribalist sentiments that are among the conditions that make wars and other forms of violence or needless harms more likely.

[you&me]

Originally Posted by opendoor

These were in response this question:

Originally Posted by GordonBlue
If we had any employees from Russia that currently still lived there and only traveled to work at my company on Monday and then went home at the end of each week, then yes. fire them and ship them home.

Originally Posted by Jordan! View Post
Russian Heritage / U.S. Citizens? No

Current Russian Citizen contractors? Absolutely

I read both of those quotes as referring to Russian citizens, residing in Russia, being cut off from employment at Canadian companies.

I don't see anyone advocating for Russian internment camps or something similar and would agree that would be insane... But no one's doing it.

[burn_this_city]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

It actually seems like the kind of thing that provides even more powerful material for propaganda to rally support against the West, not less.

I understand what the Russian government and military are doing in Ukraine and I am totally opposed to it. The position I come at from though is one of viewing war itself, along with the conditions and choices that lead to war, as the enemy. Tribalism is one of those conditions that leads to war, so I see something like banning Russian athletes from Wimbledon as an action that does virtually nothing to stop the war but which validates and reinforces tribalist sentiments that are among the conditions that make wars and other forms of violence or needless harms more likely.

I think you vastly underestimate how this war is a logical outcome of the hyper nationalism seen in Russia for far too long. Short to medium term I don't really see how we reintegrate Russians into the wider world.

Can't recommend enough these threads by Kimal Galeev on the Russian perspective and why this is more of a cultural war than anything.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1516162437455654913

[FlameOn]

FP reporting Ukraine now has more tanks than the Russians do after taking delivery of the Czech/Polish T-72M1s, previously reported 112+, whether they are all ready to go or full delivery is done was not disclosed. So Ukrainians have more manpower and armor than the Russians at this point, just the question of available crews and how fast the new tank units can push to the front. This will help in the coming months when the rains stop and Russians are no longer confined to roads or stuck in the mud.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1517165874372825092

US also announces new arms package to deal with upcoming summer conditions.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1517142498249900033

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Dude. That's tomorrow's problem. I'm quite sure the Ukrainians being bombed today aren't concerned with "positive post-war relationships" right now. That's a very strange take.

Let's leave no stone unturned in stopping this madness and then worry about building a positive relationship.

Fundamentally, I don't see the banning of Russian athletes as contributing significantly to solving today's problem, but I do see it as more likely to make tomorrow's problems unnecessarily worse. Tomorrow's problems will have roots in today, just as today's problems have roots in yesterday.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

Fundamentally, I don't see the banning of Russian athletes as contributing significantly to solving today's problem, but I do see it as more likely to make tomorrow's problems unnecessarily worse. Tomorrow's problems will have roots in today, just as today's problems have roots in yesterday.

I wouldn't expect them to contribute significantly. Death by a thousand cuts is the strategy. If it helps a little, then that's a win.

Your conceptually correct in what you're saying, but we're in triage mode here. Tomorrow's relations are irrelevant compared to the more pressing need of stopping the slaughter of innocents. It's hilariously weird to be more focused on being able to bro out with Russians three years from now versus stopping them from killing their neighbours today.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

I think you vastly underestimate how this war is a logical outcome of the hyper nationalism seen in Russia for far too long. Short to medium term I don't really see how we reintegrate Russians into the wider world.

Can't recommend enough these threads by Kimal Galeev on the Russian perspective and why this is more of a cultural war than anything.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1516162437455654913

I am opposed to nationalism on all fronts, whether it's Russian nationalism or nationalism anywhere else. As you point out, heightened nationalism is a condition for conflict and war. People are not their nationality and it's not a good foundation for identifying people and how they deserve to treated.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

I am opposed to nationalism on all fronts, whether it's Russian nationalism or nationalism anywhere else. As you point out, heightened nationalism is a condition for conflict and war. People are not their nationality and it's not a good foundation for identifying people and how they deserve to treated.

I'm seeing a lot of pontificating on your end, but not any better alternatives.

Any thoughts on what can be done to hasten the end of this war?

[Leondros]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

Fundamentally, I don't see the banning of Russian athletes as contributing significantly to solving today's problem, but I do see it as more likely to make tomorrow's problems unnecessarily worse. Tomorrow's problems will have roots in today, just as today's problems have roots in yesterday.

Dude. What world are you living in right now? Your takes are so detached from reality. We are literally living in a world where Russian soldiers are going into Ukrainian homes, shooting the men and raping the women over and over. Some of these women are aged 13 - 14. Can you try to put yourself in those shoes. Who the f*** cares about tomorrow at this point when we need to solve the atrocities that are happening today.

We get it, you are an idealist and want to stop these things from happening in the future. It is far more complicated than that for reasons far beyond any of our understanding. Beat the tribalism drum all you want but at the end of the day a dictatorship with a small handful of elite made this decision and are responsible. The only way out is to make it so difficult for the people of Russia that get so desperate they enact that change themselves. That is the only way when the rest of the world is being held hostage by nukes. So forgive us if some of us couldn't really care less if some professional athletes are barred from events with the current state of the world. Any and all pressure should be used in a time of war. And this is the closest its been to a time of war in a very long time.