Israel declares war on Hamas

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Beninho

Every war the Palestinians engage in the situation gets worse for them, it doesn’t take a political scientist to figure that out. It is stating an obvious, there has never been an armed conflict where they have gained a victory. There is no victory for Palestinians because they continue the same zero sum cycle generation after generation. You have been a Hamas propagandist for years, you infantilize the Palestinians and lay zero blame to their society for playing an equal hand in this conflict. A war where one side continuously breaks ceasefire, targets civilians, loses, then claims genocide hiding behind their own civilians and you and the rest of the sheep eat it up and parade Palestinian deaths behind your computer screen. It is the same formula during every war for the between Israel and Hamas for the last 20 years.

That's not completely true.

The first intifada was a catalyst for the Oslo accords. Which in hindsight may not have achieved statehood, but achieved partial recognition in the UN, as well as full recognition by 139 member nations.

The second intifada was a major reason for the removal of the Gaza settlements and Israeli disengagement.

Unfortunately for Israeli civilians, their country has shown that, yes, terrorism does in fact work, and is the only way to stop their colonialism. You seem pretty confident that this war will only be a setback for the Palestinians and you may be right. I won't predict the future as you like to do, but there are growing demands worldwide for palestinian statehood right now that just didn't exist prior to Oct. 7. Whether or not the momentum keeps building, we'll have to wait and see.

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by _Q_

That's not completely true.

The first intifada was a catalyst for the Oslo accords. Which in hindsight may not have achieved statehood, but achieved partial recognition in the UN, as well as full recognition by 139 member nations.

The Hamas attacks in the 90s and early 2000s was a major reason for the removal of the Gaza settlements and Israeli disengagement.

Unfortunately for Israeli civilians, their country has shown that, yes, terrorism does in fact work, and is the only way to stop their colonialism. You seem pretty confident that this war will only be a setback for the Palestinians and you may be right. I won't predict the future as you like to do, but there are growing demands worldwide for palestinian statehood right now that just didn't exist prior to Oct. 7. Whether or not the momentum keeps building, we'll have to wait and see.

See but that is where you misinterpret everything I have said. I don’t believe the Palestinians getting a state is a loss. It would actually be a monumental achievement if the Palestinians created a peaceful state that doesn’t engage in war with Israel. I just do not see how one is created within the immediate future or through warfare. There would need to at least be a decade or more of calm where good faith could be garnered on both sides. The international community cannot just force one into existence without there actually being any real work to ensure peace. There is zero appetite even in the Israeli left to have talks about a Palestinian state, because for most Israelis it would be rewarding terror. But sure, a two state solution arising out of this war is of course the best case scenario and if it happens why would I consider that a loss? A loss is continuing this never ending cycle where nothing ever changes.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by _Q_

That's not completely true.

The first intifada was a catalyst for the Oslo accords. Which in hindsight may not have achieved statehood, but achieved partial recognition in the UN, as well as full recognition by 139 member nations.

The second intifada was a major reason for the removal of the Gaza settlements and Israeli disengagement.

Unfortunately for Israeli civilians, their country has shown that, yes, terrorism does in fact work, and is the only way to stop their colonialism. You seem pretty confident that this war will only be a setback for the Palestinians and you may be right. I won't predict the future as you like to do, but there are growing demands worldwide for palestinian statehood right now that just didn't exist prior to Oct. 7. Whether or not the momentum keeps building, we'll have to wait and see.

I disagree pretty strongly with this.

The Oslo Accords came about after Israel had established a peace treaty with Egypt and Jordan. Prior to those treaties, Jordan, for example, was still claiming the West Bank, and the most likely final peace deal would have seen the West Bank split between Jordan and Israel.

Israel withdrew from Gaza for demographic reasons. The Arab population of Gaza had grown to the size that no permanent Israeli state could exist there. Prior to the Israeli withdrawal (which occurred before Hamas taking power there), there weren't very many terrorist attacks within Gaza itself. Almost all of the Gaza attacks, were at the border crossings, and no actual Israeli civilians were killed in the Gaza Strip:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...uicide_attacks

All the attacks were occurring in the West Bank, which is where Israel is not withdrawing from. The idea that Hamas chased Israel out of Gaza is totally false, as the timelines are all backwards. Israel withdrew first, then Hamas took over.

Israel had, in fact, offered the Palestinians about 95%, plus land swaps, of the West Bank prior to Hamas' "resistance". That was 20 years ago. The Palestinian people are, unfortunately, very far from that prospect now.

Terrorism has gotten the Palestinian people nowhere. Now Israel's resolve has clearly changed, and future terrorism will push the Palestinian people backwards.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by blankall

I disagree pretty strongly with this.

The Oslo Accords came about after Israel had established a peace treaty with Egypt and Jordan. Prior to those treaties, Jordan, for example, was still claiming the West Bank, and the most likely final peace deal would have seen the West Bank split between Jordan and Israel.

Israel withdrew from Gaza for demographic reasons. The Arab population of Gaza had grown to the size that no permanent Israeli state could exist there. Prior to the Israeli withdrawal (which occurred before Hamas taking power there), there weren't very many terrorist attacks within Gaza itself. Almost all of the Gaza attacks, were at the border crossings, and no actual Israeli civilians were killed in the Gaza Strip:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...uicide_attacks

All the attacks were occurring in the West Bank, which is where Israel is not withdrawing from. The idea that Hamas chased Israel out of Gaza is totally false, as the timelines are all backwards. Israel withdrew first, then Hamas took over.

Israel had, in fact, offered the Palestinians about 95%, plus land swaps, of the West Bank prior to Hamas' "resistance". That was 20 years ago. The Palestinian people are, unfortunately, very far from that prospect now.

Terrorism has gotten the Palestinian people nowhere. Now Israel's resolve has clearly changed, and future terrorism will push the Palestinian people backwards.

You're right, Terrorism has gotten Palestine nowhere. If Isreal would like to stop terrorism coming from Hamas, then it should focus on eliminating the conditions which allow for it to thrive. Thus far, they've only made the conditions worse and therefore seeded the region for future extremism.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

You're right, Terrorism has gotten Palestine nowhere. If Isreal would like to stop terrorism coming from Hamas, then it should focus on eliminating the conditions which allow for it to thrive. Thus far, they've only made the conditions worse and therefore seeded the region for future extremism.

The extreme elements have stated those "conditions" are Israel ending its existence. A major issue is that every time Israel has loosened conditions around the Gaza Strip they've been met with more violence. They withdrew from Gaza, the Gazans elect Hamas. They allowed 40,000 work permits and loosened funds/goods to Gaza in 2023, and Hamas uses that opportunity to gather information for the Oct 7 attacks.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Beninho

Every war the Palestinians engage in the situation gets worse for them, it doesn’t take a political scientist to figure that out. It is stating an obvious, there has never been an armed conflict where they have gained a victory. There is no victory for Palestinians because they continue the same zero sum cycle generation after generation. You have been a Hamas propagandist for years, you infantilize the Palestinians and lay zero blame to their society for playing an equal hand in this conflict. A war where one side continuously breaks ceasefire, targets civilians, loses, then claims genocide hiding behind their own civilians and you and the rest of the anti-Israel crowd eat it up and parade Palestinian deaths behind your computer screen. It is the same formula in every war between Israel and Hamas for the last 20 years. If the Palestinians care more about their own society then with their obsessive Jew hate there would have been a Palestinian state decades ago. This is true when Golda Meir said it and it is of course still true now and probably will continue to be true in the proceeding decades.

Should you be throwing around terms like “propagandist” without any evidence when you’ve shared Israeli government propaganda and refused to even acknowledge the reporting and intelligence reports that have made clear you were fooled by propaganda?

You can use whatever made up names you want for anyone, but I’m not sure why you would lie about someone else especially when it draws attention to you doing the same things. Why do you hate people Palestinians and people who are against this war so much that it requires this level of derision?

[Fuzz]

I wouldn't expect any sort of integrity out of Beninho, they are a coward who can't even speak their own convictions. Plus, you know, the bloodlust.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by blankall

The extreme elements have stated those "conditions" are Israel ending its existence. A major issue is that every time Israel has loosened conditions around the Gaza Strip they've been met with more violence. They withdrew from Gaza, the Gazans elect Hamas. They allowed 40,000 work permits and loosened funds/goods to Gaza in 2023, and Hamas uses that opportunity to gather information for the Oct 7 attacks.

Okay, but what makes the average person extreme? What conditions can be improved?

[Manhattanboy]

The intelligence failures are staggering on so many levels. This war has certainly proven that for some time now Hamas leadership has had no intention of anything at all involving the social, economic and cultural development of Gaza, normalized relations with Israel and other countries and a path towards statehood. The hundreds of millions of dollars wasted on the construction of tunnels.

A two state solution is possible but it will require new and courageous leadership on all sides that recognize the fundamental rights of all.

[TheIronMaiden]

the situation is FUBAR.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

Okay, but what makes the average person extreme? What conditions can be improved?

As long as Iran and Qatar keep pouring billions of dollars into funding Hamas and other extremist groups, the conditions are secondary to the influence of these groups. When Hamas is the biggest employer, controls the schools, hospitals and other social services, and is preaching some kind of death cult based on the idea that divine forces will obliterate Israel, it doesn't matter what conditions are like.

Once again, we have the historical timelines reversed. It was withdraw from Gaza that led to Hamas and then the restriction. It was not restrictions that led to Hamas and then withdrawal.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by blankall

As long as Iran and Qatar keep pouring billions of dollars into funding Hamas and other extremist groups, the conditions are secondary to the influence of these groups. When Hamas is the biggest employer, controls the schools, hospitals and other social services, and is preaching some kind of death cult based on the idea that divine forces will obliterate Israel, it doesn't matter what conditions are like.

Once again, we have the historical timelines reversed. It was withdraw from Gaza that led to Hamas and then the restriction. It was not restrictions that led to Hamas and then withdrawal.

Well, if we want the “timelines” to be correct, it was also Israeli influence that led to Hamas as they aided Hamas in an effort to weaken or “balance” the Palestinian Authority.

We shouldn’t pretend for a single second that Israel bailed on Gaza and OOPS! looks like they voted in Hamas out of nowhere!

[zunie75]

Originally Posted by Beninho

There is no genocide, its a war,

Right, and history has shown that its impossible to have both things occurring?

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by zunie75

The why and what they get is actually fairly obvious. But you cannot say it with out being labelled anti-Semitic

[zunie75]

Originally Posted by Beninho

How do you feel about Hamas using hospitals and refugee camps as human shields and pimping out their own population to achieve their goal of wiping out every Jew and creating a Jihadi caliphate in the middle east?

Or how about the billions of dollars of foreign aid Hamas have been given over the last 18 years to only use it to create a pariah state whose sole function and being is to wage war with Israel? How do you feel about that? Is that how you achieve peace or a state?

How do you feel about Iran using Hezbollah and Hamas as proxy armies who fire rockets into civilians centers, unprovoked for decades?

How do you feel about the pay for slay initiative where the PLO has spent millions of dollars paying the families of terrorists who kill innocent Israelis? That ok? How do you feel about that?


Or how do you feel about the call for a global intifada where Muslims are encouraged to kill Jews around the world? Please let me know

blah blah blah blah how do you feel, Iran this, Saudi that, PLO this PLO that. All completely irrelevant when the majority of people are talking about stopping the killing of thousands of innocent Palestinians. That's it. That is what we are asking for.

You can mention the bull #### going on in the world all you want, but it will never justify the incompetent Israeli government and militaries handling of the war against Hamas, All they are achieving is killing innocent Palestinians.

If Hamas is using hospitals, tunnels, its own people, the UN, Panda Bears, Subways new keto bread to accomplish their goal of destroying Israel, and Israel hasn't stopped them yet, perhaps its time to wake up and change tactics. The world isn't going to tolerate it much longer.

[Red Slinger]

Originally Posted by zunie75

blah blah blah blah how do you feel, Iran this, Saudi that, PLO this PLO that. All completely irrelevant when the majority of people are talking about stopping the killing of thousands of innocent Palestinians. That's it. That is what we are asking for.

You can mention the bull #### going on in the world all you want, but it will never justify the incompetent Israeli government and militaries handling of the war against Hamas, All they are achieving is killing innocent Palestinians.

If Hamas is using hospitals, tunnels, its own people, the UN, Panda Bears, Subways new keto bread to accomplish their goal of destroying Israel, and Israel hasn't stopped them yet, perhaps its time to wake up and change tactics. The world isn't going to tolerate it much longer.

To the bolded...unfortunately, that's exactly what we're seeing now. Israel has changed tactics and it's ugly.

[zunie75]

Originally Posted by Beninho

Sorry buddy, not going to give you further tangents to use to avoid the actual discussions being had.

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Still waiting for someone to be more specific about the obvious benefit the U.S. gets out of friendship with Israel, and why saying it out loud is likely to be labelled anti-Semitic. Is it something to do with the Rothschilds and global finance?

This is a safe space. Nobody will call the Anti-Defamation League on you.

Well according to him it’s quite obvious so we all should know.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Well, if we want the “timelines” to be correct, it was also Israeli influence that led to Hamas as they aided Hamas in an effort to weaken or “balance” the Palestinian Authority.

We shouldn’t pretend for a single second that Israel bailed on Gaza and OOPS! looks like they voted in Hamas out of nowhere!

Israel showed indifference towards the Muslim Brotherhood (the precursor group of Hamas) who had denounced violence. Starting in the early 80s, when it became clear that the founders of Hamas were actually pursuing violent means, Israel began to arrest them.

Even if Israel wanted to challenge the Muslim Brotherhood, how were they supposed to do that? Tear down random mosques (who had denounced violence). That would have gone over real well.

After Hamas won the election, Israel immediately began to arrest Hamas supporters. The Israeli withdrawal from Gaza was in September of 2005. In June of 2006 Israel had full scale military operation against Hamas after Gilad Shalit was kidnapped. Israel and the US then tried to overthrow Hamas and forced a unity government. War breaks out between Hamas and Fatah in June of 2007 and Hamas takes control of Gaza soon after. Hamas is forced to withdraw from the West Bank due to Fatah receiving US and Israeli support.

The idea that Israel put Hamas in power in Gaza is complete hogwash. Israel didn't do anything to actively support Islamist movements, and began to actively fight them as soon as the early 1980s, over twenty years before Hamas was elected into power.

[curves2000]

Originally Posted by Beninho

Well according to him it’s quite obvious so we all should know.

I am really not as passionate on this particular topic like others and I understand the concern everybody has in their corner for sure.

One thing I have noticed amongst my Israeli and Jewish friends is a stark change in tone regarding what the primary goal of this mission is in recent weeks.

People can debate all they want about this and that, but getting the hostages back really should be #1 priority vastly exceeding anything else. The IDF, according to a lot of people, has been doing a piss poor job in that regard. Outside of some hostage exchanges and a few that have been rescued, the IDF has not been able to get their people back. They literally had friendly fire of Isreali's getting shot while waiving white flags, screaming in Hebrew.

My friends's concerns is more along the lines of "We are targeting militants in OTHER countries like Lebanon with intelligence and precision where we take out a target in a single room, but can't manage to rescue a few seniors km's from our border? Are they even trying?"

I don't know if I would personally go that far but I can see the concern people have locally in Israel without a doubt. The IDF, who have a very challenging role, is doing an excellent job on the destruction of Gaza and causing a lot of issues for it's people, I just don't know the government's top priority is getting the hostages back which in my opinion should be #1

I am not trying to sound obtuse but I think sometimes people forget that in a hypothetical situation, if the terrorists were able to renter Israel, capture a lot more hostages, keep them in Israel in various locations, the actual military operation would look vastly different.