Sutter is the problem

[Philly06Cup]

Originally Posted by sss1

This is comparison is way off base. Soccer players are able to conserve their energy on the pitch because they aren't running back and forth touching the ball for 90 minutes. That's not how the game is played. More to that, if there are players that do a whole lot of running and get gassed, they get subbed off.

Top NHL guys should play as much as possible to maximize results. I bring up feetball and hoopsport to illustrate the upper limits these guys play of possible gametime. If Huberdeau or McDavid or Makar can physically be playing more minutes, coaches should let them. I posit that due to better fitness, they top guys could be seeing a lot more minutes than they currently are. They aren't because of outdated norms of rolling 3 / 4 lines.

[Ferarri]

Originally Posted by musth

I'm aware huby is not making 10.5 this year, but...

Imagine playing arguably your most skilled player in an offensive stifling system

Imagine playing arguably your most skilled player with a guy like Lucic, a guy who by most accounts, could have hung them up two years ago and almost certainly should have this year

Imagine keeping a key cog in last year's top line and high performing center away from your skilled high priced signing for most of the year

Imagine playing your most skilled player barely more game minutes than your aforementioned gronk, and others like him from the 4th line and in fact, cutting those minutes that your skilled player was used to previously

Imagine welcoming your teams most expensive signing, and upon the start of his new season, stifle his excitement and goodwill by making stupid comments in the press about him, and then later, a fellow quebecan

Imagine not basing your teams #1 PP through this man's unique passing ability and skillset, choosing rather to employ an outside perimeter, slow, low percentage shot system

Imagine tying arguably your most skilled player with slow, incompatible linemates, and in the case of Kadri, a guy who shows no ability to use other teammates, and the combination thereof obvious to anyone who has watched the team through the first 60 games that they are like chalk and cheese

Imagine this player (or these players) seeing 4 lines rolled no matter what, see barely any in game adjustments, particularly in the last half of third periods and OT, see goalies played when it's obvious they're not mentally in it, play guys when they don't deserve to play and refrain from playing players when they do deserve to play, giving some players much much longer rope and others much much less, for no obvious reason other than age or possibly 'experience' and finally rewarding players who make obvious, game costing mistakes with PP or ot time, and benching or sending to minors players who make minor mistakes or don't 'give enough' in practice or god forbid, be under 6'2"

Imagine instead of giving your individual players or your team every opportunity to succeed, or even learn, you choose to run things like your setting players and the team to fail, largely due to your own stubbornness or hubris.


Imagine indeed

So much of what was posted here lacks any sort of fact based observations and is purely defined to fit a personal narrative about Sutter.

Let's start with the "offensive stifling system." Is this not that same system that saw Johnny Gaudreau put up 115 points, Matthew Tkachuk put up 104 points, Elias Lindholm score 42 goals and Andrew Mangiapane score 35 goals. How can that be discredited and argued that the system is holding Huberdeau to an unfair position to succeed. Let me guess last year will be deemed an outlier and a fluke but the real Sutter system does not approve offensive performance?

Secondly, being glued to Lucic for an extended period of time happened organically for a variety of different reasons. Those reasons were because pretty much every other combination of wingers was tried with and produced minimal results. You make it sound like this was the coaches default option and from day one he decided that this was the guy to ride shotgun. He tried various versions of Toffolli, Pelltier, Mangiapane, Dube etc and there was essentially zero chemistry. At least initially there was some small offensive contributions from the Lucic pairing (but I agree the experiment lasted too long), but let's not pretend that a multitude of other options wasn't tried before promoting Lucic.

The minutes issue has been discussed at length today. Last year Johnny averaged 18:34 minutes a game and Tkachuk 17:54. Huberdeau sits at just under 17 minutes (16:50). Lucic is averaging the lowest in his career and his stats are elevated by the fact that he did get second line minutes. His current average is 11:25. That's a considerable difference between the two players. Also, maybe people here have argued in Huberdeau's defense that if he was getting closer to 20 minutes a night that things would be different. That's essentially 3 minutes more for him whereas currently Huberdeau averages more than 5 minutes more than Lucic so woudn't that be an exceptional amount based on that logic?

Now to the centre issue. You make it seem that he's been stapled with Kadri for the entire season. To start the year once again he had no chemistry with Lindholm and people wanted to break them up. The coach obliged and changed it up. I'm not saying that it's not worth going back to Lindholm but it isn't like they had magic in a bottle and were an unstoppable combo.

This is the part that really gets me though. People argue he's such an elite player and that his passing/vision is one of the best in the league. If this were the case then he should be making those around him succeed. Elite players should be able to play with a different cast of players and make them better. Why are we blaming his line-mates when he's supposed to be the superstar. I've even heard ridiculous arguments that his "passing is too good" and that others on the team aren't ready to handle that. Right...I mean he's only played with virtually everyone and nobody can pot empty net goals from his all star passes. It doesn't add up.

On to the Sutter comments. Absolutely they were stupid and probably did a dis-service to the team, but let's not pretend that Walsh stirring the pot didn't have a similar negative impact. People say they believe Huberdeau when he says he didn't direct his agent to make those comments, yet somehow we won't believe the other players who came out and said that the agents comments were complete bs and that he has zero pulse on the team. So by that account the "negative culture" is a non-factor because if we take one player at face value then we should do the same for the rest.

Finally, do you want to know why a guy like Backlund is averaging more ice time than Huberdeau? Look what his teammates say about the guy:

"Backs is our leader, he’s been really good this year,” said Flames defenceman Rasmus Andersson after Sunday night’s 5-1 win over the Ottawa Senators. “He served up (assists) to me and (Elias Lindholm) on a silver platter, so happy for him that he’s having such a good year. He’s been good in, I don’t know how many games we’ve played, but he’s been good in every single one. “He’s our leader night in and night out.”

Players recognize this and so does the coaching staff. When a guy is going every single night and is a difference maker out there then of course the coach is going to reward him with more minutes. It's also contagious on the bench and the team knows who's carrying the team and which line is going. Huberdeau would be afforded the same luxury if his play dictated it. To date it has not which is why he is where he is.

[Strange Brew]

Huberdeau’s career playoffs pace is 66 points spread over 82 games. Not all that far off from his current pace this season. Pressure may not be his thing.

[JohnnyB]

It was somewhat notable that Sutter gave Huberdeau credit for scoring the big goal following the Arizona game, despite it being a lucky bounce. At the same time, the way Huberdeau said the team needs to work on their overtime performance for next season sounded kind of defeated to me, as if he's already a bit resigned to not making it this year. So very uninspiring as a fan.

No doubt I would give Backlund the C over Huberdeau. The difference in leadership on the ice is pronounced. Huberdeau started this season with lots of fan support to become captain, but I can't imagine anyone sees him like that now.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by ForeverFlameFan

https://twitter.com/user/status/1636120085533462528

Thoughts?

That chart is ridiculous. The Flames were at pretty much the same points percentage back in December as they are now, and they were pretty well in the same spot in league ranking for points. There was no crash out of being a playoff team. They were simply never that likely to make it. The reality of them being a bubble team with an outside chance has just become undeniable as time marched on, but they haven't looked much like a playoff team since game 5 this season.

[Flamesfan05]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Huberdeau’s career playoffs pace is 66 points spread over 82 games. Not all that far off from his current pace this season. Pressure may not be his thing.

Yeah but you find that for most players on teams that don’t have success in the playoffs, Barkov, Matthews, Marner, Tavares all have similar numbers in the playoffs

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Ferarri

The minutes issue has been discussed at length today. Last year Johnny averaged 18:34 minutes a game and Tkachuk 17:54. Huberdeau sits at just under 17 minutes (16:50). Lucic is averaging the lowest in his career and his stats are elevated by the fact that he did get second line minutes. His current average is 11:25. That's a considerable difference between the two players. Also, maybe people here have argued in Huberdeau's defense that if he was getting closer to 20 minutes a night that things would be different. That's essentially 3 minutes more for him whereas currently Huberdeau averages more than 5 minutes more than Lucic so woudn't that be an exceptional amount based on that logic?

Yeah the fixation on Lucic's ice time is becoming silly.

He and whoever is on the fourth line is getting basically the NHL average fourth line minutes.

Huberdeau (top six player) have lost ice time to Backlund's line, not the fourth line, and they're by metrics the best line in hockey.

[combustiblefuel]

Wrong thread

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

That chart is ridiculous. The Flames were at pretty much the same points percentage back in December as they are now, and they were pretty well in the same spot in league ranking for points. There was no crash out of being a playoff team. They were simply never that likely to make it. The reality of them being a bubble team with an outside chance has just become undeniable as time marched on, but they haven't looked much like a playoff team since game 5 this season.

The chart is for simpletons to simpleton. They'll never compute that the rise of some generates the fall of others.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Yeah the fixation on Lucic's ice time is becoming silly.

He and whoever is on the fourth line is getting basically the NHL average fourth line minutes.

Huberdeau (top six player) have lost ice time to Backlund's line, not the fourth line, and they're by metrics the best line in hockey.

Any stats on what line gets the most shifts after a Backlund line shift?

Would be interesting to see and goes back to my post about momentum.

Would make sense to put out a offensive line to go out and finish after they create a lot of the momentum.

[Erick Estrada]

I just kind of wonder how many players in the locker room will be happy to play under Sutter another year and how that will affect all the decisions of pending UFA's. Last season went great on the ice and Tkachuk still didn't want anything to do with Darryl. After this season I have to think some players are getting a little exhausted.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by Ferarri

So much of what was posted here lacks any sort of fact based observations and is purely defined to fit a personal narrative about Sutter.

Let's start with the "offensive stifling system." Is this not that same system that saw Johnny Gaudreau put up 115 points, Matthew Tkachuk put up 104 points, Elias Lindholm score 42 goals and Andrew Mangiapane score 35 goals. How can that be discredited and argued that the system is holding Huberdeau to an unfair position to succeed. Let me guess last year will be deemed an outlier and a fluke but the real Sutter system does not approve offensive performance?

Secondly, being glued to Lucic for an extended period of time happened organically for a variety of different reasons. Those reasons were because pretty much every other combination of wingers was tried with and produced minimal results. You make it sound like this was the coaches default option and from day one he decided that this was the guy to ride shotgun. He tried various versions of Toffolli, Pelltier, Mangiapane, Dube etc and there was essentially zero chemistry. At least initially there was some small offensive contributions from the Lucic pairing (but I agree the experiment lasted too long), but let's not pretend that a multitude of other options wasn't tried before promoting Lucic.

The minutes issue has been discussed at length today. Last year Johnny averaged 18:34 minutes a game and Tkachuk 17:54. Huberdeau sits at just under 17 minutes (16:50). Lucic is averaging the lowest in his career and his stats are elevated by the fact that he did get second line minutes. His current average is 11:25. That's a considerable difference between the two players. Also, maybe people here have argued in Huberdeau's defense that if he was getting closer to 20 minutes a night that things would be different. That's essentially 3 minutes more for him whereas currently Huberdeau averages more than 5 minutes more than Lucic so woudn't that be an exceptional amount based on that logic?

Now to the centre issue. You make it seem that he's been stapled with Kadri for the entire season. To start the year once again he had no chemistry with Lindholm and people wanted to break them up. The coach obliged and changed it up. I'm not saying that it's not worth going back to Lindholm but it isn't like they had magic in a bottle and were an unstoppable combo.

This is the part that really gets me though. People argue he's such an elite player and that his passing/vision is one of the best in the league. If this were the case then he should be making those around him succeed. Elite players should be able to play with a different cast of players and make them better. Why are we blaming his line-mates when he's supposed to be the superstar. I've even heard ridiculous arguments that his "passing is too good" and that others on the team aren't ready to handle that. Right...I mean he's only played with virtually everyone and nobody can pot empty net goals from his all star passes. It doesn't add up.

On to the Sutter comments. Absolutely they were stupid and probably did a dis-service to the team, but let's not pretend that Walsh stirring the pot didn't have a similar negative impact. People say they believe Huberdeau when he says he didn't direct his agent to make those comments, yet somehow we won't believe the other players who came out and said that the agents comments were complete bs and that he has zero pulse on the team. So by that account the "negative culture" is a non-factor because if we take one player at face value then we should do the same for the rest.

Finally, do you want to know why a guy like Backlund is averaging more ice time than Huberdeau? Look what his teammates say about the guy:

"Backs is our leader, he’s been really good this year,” said Flames defenceman Rasmus Andersson after Sunday night’s 5-1 win over the Ottawa Senators. “He served up (assists) to me and (Elias Lindholm) on a silver platter, so happy for him that he’s having such a good year. He’s been good in, I don’t know how many games we’ve played, but he’s been good in every single one. “He’s our leader night in and night out.”

Players recognize this and so does the coaching staff. When a guy is going every single night and is a difference maker out there then of course the coach is going to reward him with more minutes. It's also contagious on the bench and the team knows who's carrying the team and which line is going. Huberdeau would be afforded the same luxury if his play dictated it. To date it has not which is why he is where he is.

For those who have watched Sutter in the past, he has no problem complimenting the team, or players when they play well. Huberdeau is no exception, we saw it with Gaudreau, we saw it with Kylington. With Kylington he said they talked and he said he was going to make mistakes but to avoid the big mistakes. He said when Kylington first got his opportunity (that no one else gave him) that they both thought the game the same way. The reason Huberdeau isn't getting more ice time, is because he hasn't really showed up yet. If Huberdeau, who will be getting paid like a superstar, would step up we likely would have a few more wins.

Backlund on the other hand is out there showing consistancy and being a difference maker. One of these guys will be getting paid more, a lot more than the other for a reason. I know which one I would rather have on my team, at least right now.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I just kind of wonder how many players in the locker room will be happy to play under Sutter another year and how that will affect all the decisions of pending UFA's. Last season went great on the ice and Tkachuk still didn't want anything to do with Darryl. After this season I have to think some players are getting a little exhausted.

Whoooo boy is that a leap.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

That chart is ridiculous. The Flames were at pretty much the same points percentage back in December as they are now, and they were pretty well in the same spot in league ranking for points. There was no crash out of being a playoff team. They were simply never that likely to make it. The reality of them being a bubble team with an outside chance has just become undeniable as time marched on, but they haven't looked much like a playoff team since game 5 this season.

If I am not mistaken the Flames were in a playoff spot the entire year of 2022 and have dropped out over the past couple of months. They also did not take advantage of this strength of schedule that most people making the predictions thought they would recover from and move forward. Since the Pelletier comments the team has won 8 of 21 games.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I just kind of wonder how many players in the locker room will be happy to play under Sutter another year and how that will affect all the decisions of pending UFA's. Last season went great on the ice and Tkachuk still didn't want anything to do with Darryl. After this season I have to think some players are getting a little exhausted.

In his book Brian Burke pretty much alludes to the fact they had to get rid of Hartley because the players despised him and his hard ass approach.

Will be a fascinating offseason.

Might have no GM a team that may have turned on its coach a ownership who seems to be in love with the coach for some reason.

[taxbuster]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I just kind of wonder how many players in the locker room will be happy to play under Sutter another year and how that will affect all the decisions of pending UFA's. Last season went great on the ice and Tkachuk still didn't want anything to do with Darryl. After this season I have to think some players are getting a little exhausted.

It would appear that MT was a self-indulgent, me-first, team-last prick. His fight last playoffs was all about HIM, not team and he was never going to stay and play in Canada. He ain't his brother. He wanted the golden deal and he wanted it in a "nice place" (judging by his chosen destinations).

Great player when motivated for "team" and a Sutter-type player then. But that's NOT who he was at base. Showboat guy. Don't try to make him into a legend.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Whoooo boy is that a leap.

Yeah I don't think it is at all.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Yeah I don't think it is at all.

Even if it's true that he didn't like playing for Sutter it's very unlikely to be the only reason he chose to leave, as you basically framed it.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I just kind of wonder how many players in the locker room will be happy to play under Sutter another year and how that will affect all the decisions of pending UFA's. Last season went great on the ice and Tkachuk still didn't want anything to do with Darryl. After this season I have to think some players are getting a little exhausted.

Are we talking about the same Tkachuk who pretty much took a season off because people didn't like his antics on the ice? The same guy, who didn't show up until Sutter put him on the top line? Wasn't it rumored that he was not liked in the room and Sutter came out said he felt bad for Tkachuk because he often stayed behind at the Dome by himself?

Tkachuk himself said he worked his contract in a way that would give him options when his next contract came up. You just have to google Tkachuk's reason for leaving to see his own coments on the subject,. Lots of reasons not to like Sutter but I am not sure I agree on this one.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Even if it's true that he didn't like playing for Sutter it's very unlikely to be the only reason he chose to leave, as you basically framed it.

We have a couple of core pieces coming up for extensions this summer we if they don't extend, we need to know why and if in fact a coaching change would impact their decision.

If Lindholm hit the market last offseason do you think he gets a 9-10 million deal like Matthew and Johnny?

Two seasons of 60 points and going to UFA does his number drop?