2022: The year the world returns to war?

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Itse

Again; neither of these supposed issues are related to Russians shelling Ukrainian soldiers and civilians right now in eastern Ukraine. That's neither about Crimea or about NATO.

They're yesterday's excuses for war from someone who is obviously just making #### up as he goes. What would even be the point of discussing these excuses for war, when Putin himself seems to have already moved past them, and it's obvious that giving in would do nothing.

In 5 years... "we will stop taking other parts of Ukraine if you recognize Donetsk and Luhanskas as Russian territory"...and so on.

[White Out 403]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

In 5 years... "we will stop taking other parts of Ukraine if you recognize Donetsk and Luhanskas as Russian territory"...and so on.

Hey man. Appeasement against autocratic nations always works, bro. Read your history.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Itse

Again; neither of these supposed issues are related to Russians shelling Ukrainian soldiers and civilians right now in eastern Ukraine. That's neither about Crimea or about NATO.

They're yesterday's excuses for war from someone who is obviously just making #### up as he goes. What would even be the point of discussing these excuses for war, when Putin himself seems to have already moved past them, and it's obvious that giving in would do nothing.

Putin is now moving troops into a different part of the country under completely different reasoning.

I do believe those are actual reasons. NATO's promise was most definitely NOT made up as he went. Crimea being part of Russia is very debatable, but it didn't exactly came out of a thin air either.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Timeline

Pre- 1783:-; Ottomans, Byzantine, ancient tribes
1783 - 1917 - Russian empire, capital St.Petersburg
1917-1954 Russian Soviet Republic, USSR, capital Moscow
1954-1991 - Ukrainian Soviet Republic, USSR, capital - Moscow
1991-2014 - Ukraine, capital Kiev
2014+ not included

209 years under St.Petersburg&Moscow rule
23 years under Kiev rule

And Kiev ruled over Moscow for what, 300+ years?

You're neing ridiculous and honestly obnoxious.

Please stop making excuses for war on behalf of a dictator.

[White Out 403]

Originally Posted by Itse

And Kyiv ruled over Moscow for what, 300+ years?

You're neing ridiculous and honestly obnoxious.

Please stop making excuses for war on behalf of a dictator.

Fyp

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by White Out 403

Hey man. Appeasement against autocratic nations always works, bro. Read your history.

I was thinking we should send him a nice gift basket.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

In 5 years... "we will stop taking other parts of Ukraine if you recognize Donetsk and Luhanskas as Russian territory"...and so on.

Israel isn't a NATO member. Yet USA is heavily involved in its defense. Being or not being in NATO does not equal getting or not getting help from the west. EU members have their own defensive agreements as well. USA can heavily enforce Ukrainian borders if they so will. Put UN forces on patrol there if you want. Means to ensure Ukraine will not be attacked again should definitely be part of a peace deal.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Itse

And Kiev ruled over Moscow for what, 300+ years?

You're neing ridiculous and honestly obnoxious.

Please stop making excuses for war on behalf of a dictator.

Kyevan Rus ended in 1240. Moscow founded 1147. Interlap is basically a century.

I'm not making any excuses for war. This war is unexcusable. I am, personally, worried and find refuge in thinking over ways out of this horror.

[Leeman4Gilmour]

It's been said by another, but I'm really appreciating the insight from Pointman.

I also feel Pointman is being very clear on their points:
~ doesn't agree with Putin but;
~ trying to give all of us Putin's point of view and line of thinking.

Naturally, there's going to be a lot of disagreement with the second point. Let's not pile on (it's not really happening, but I'm seeing a trend) Pointman for providing the Russian/Putin viewpoint. I say this, because I don't want her/him to get frustrated and stop contributing.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by White Out 403

Hey man. Appeasement against autocratic nations always works, bro. Read your history.

People just keep bringing Hitler, but there are way more successful examples than unsuccessful ones. USSR and USA dividing Korea for example. Portugal and Spain sharing the new lands in the age of discovery. Russia selling Alaska to USA.

[Huntingwhale]

Originally Posted by Leeman4Gilmour

It's been said by another, but I'm really appreciating the insight from Pointman.

I also feel Pointman is being very clear on their points:
~ doesn't agree with Putin but;
~ trying to give all of us Putin's point of view and line of thinking.

Naturally, there's going to be a lot of disagreement with the second point. Let's not pile on (it's not really happening, but I'm seeing a trend) Pointman for providing the Russian/Putin viewpoint. I say this, because I don't want her/him to get frustrated and stop contributing.

Agreed. Some great posting, even though some of us might not agree with everything being said. Good to have an "inside scoop" instead of the usual echo chamber that often breaks out on these kind of topics.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Timeline

Pre- 1783:-; Ottomans, Byzantine, ancient tribes
1783 - 1917 - Russian empire, capital St.Petersburg
1917-1954 Russian Soviet Republic, USSR, capital Moscow
1954-1991 - Ukrainian Soviet Republic, USSR, capital - Moscow
1991-2014 - Ukraine, capital Kiev
2014+ not included

209 years under St.Petersburg&Moscow rule
23 years under Kiev rule

Originally Posted by Pointman

Putin's speech wasn't the easiest to keep track of, but he surely did say that NATO is a big part of the reason for invasion. He specifically mentioned:

1. Broken promise to not accept eastern countries (which is true)
2. Missiles that can reach Moscow in 5 minutes if located in eastern Ukraine (no idea if true)
3. Ochakovo naval base renovated by NATO (somewhat true, might be embellished)

Again, he's attacking Ukraine over something Ukraine did not do. Not NATO, Ukraine.

Russia has also literally already conquered parts of Ukraine before any of these fresh excuses became "relevant", and it has no problem putting their weapons right on the border and over it. You're just going around repeating the false notion that Ukraine has no right to defend itself against Russian aggression, and claiming that a country under constant threat of Russian occupation should not try to defend itself.

Again, you're being ridiculous, and yes, Putins demands are not a realistic starting point for negotiations, because there is no desire to negotiate on his part. He's just making threats and demands backed by threat of even more violence.

At least 14,000 Ukrainians have already died in the last decade in wars against Russians and pro-Russian troops armed and supported by Russia. Crimea is already lost to Ukraine, as is effectively East Ukraine. 1.5M have fled from their homes, before this fresh round of excuses. Over 100.000 Russian troops are surrounding Ukraine from Transnistria to Belarus to Crimea, and Putin just declared that Ukraine isn't even a real country.

Yes, it's ridiculous to tell Ukrainians that they're not allowed to seek military allies, and it's ridiculous to suggest at this point that other countries, including NATO, are somehow not allowed to aid Ukraine in their continuing fight against Russia.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

I'm not going to say the US wasn't involved in this ousters of governments in those countries, but when you live next to the US and how they can barely accomplish anything politically because they are so divided right now, the idea that they can manage to over-throw these governments seems far-fetched.

USA's history of overthrowing overseas governments is well-documented and not even debated by USA itself

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...hange-regimes/

https://foreignpolicy.com/2013/08/20...as-overthrown/

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by Leeman4Gilmour

It's been said by another, but I'm really appreciating the insight from Pointman.

I also feel Pointman is being very clear on their points:
~ doesn't agree with Putin but;
~ trying to give all of us Putin's point of view and line of thinking.

Naturally, there's going to be a lot of disagreement with the second point. Let's not pile on (it's not really happening, but I'm seeing a trend) Pointman for providing the Russian/Putin viewpoint. I say this, because I don't want her/him to get frustrated and stop contributing.

Good point - looks like Itse is also from Finland so he has a unique perspective as well given his country borders Russia.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Timeline

Pre- 1783:-; Ottomans, Byzantine, ancient tribes
1783 - 1917 - Russian empire, capital St.Petersburg
1917-1954 Russian Soviet Republic, USSR, capital Moscow
1954-1991 - Ukrainian Soviet Republic, USSR, capital - Moscow
1991-2014 - Ukraine, capital Kiev
2014+ not included

209 years under St.Petersburg&Moscow rule
23 years under Kiev rule

Ukrainian Independence Referendum: December 1, 1991
Russian Federation: December 25, 1991

These are the only two dates that matter.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Kyevan Rus ended in 1240. Moscow founded 1147. Interlap is basically a century.

I'm not making any excuses for war. This war is unexcusable. I am, personally, worried and find refuge in thinking over ways out of this horror.

You are. I get that you're blind to it, but you are totally making excuses for war.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Itse

Again, he's attacking Ukraine over something Ukraine did not do. Not NATO, Ukraine.

Russia has also literally already conquered parts of Ukraine before any of these fresh excuses became "relevant", and it has no problem putting their weapons right on the border and over it. You're just going around repeating the false notion that Ukraine has no right to defend itself against Russian aggression, and claiming that a country under constant threat of Russian occupation should not try to defend itself.

Again, you're being ridiculous, and yes, Putins demands are not a realistic starting point for negotiations, because there is no desire to negotiate on his part. He's just making threats and demands backed by threat of even more violence.

At least 14,000 Ukrainians have already died in the last decade in wars against Russians and pro-Russian troops armed and supported by Russia. Crimea is already lost to Ukraine, as is effectively East Ukraine. 1.5M have fled from their homes, before this fresh round of excuses. Over 100.000 Russian troops are surrounding Ukraine from Transnistria to Belarus to Crimea, and Putin just declared that Ukraine isn't even a real country.

Yes, it's ridiculous to tell Ukrainians that they're not allowed to seek military allies, and it's ridiculous to suggest at this point that other countries, including NATO, are somehow not allowed to aid Ukraine in their continuing fight against Russia.

Sure Ukraine has a right to defend itself. And the west has a right to step in and help. I just don't want this whole situation to go that route. I want peace, not bigger war. My country and I personally may and probably will suffer from sanctions at best. I don't even want to think about the worst. I may get a call to join army if it comes to that. I don't just sit on a couch theorizing about this war.

Putin did say clearly, that he wants to negotiate, and formulated his demands. If you don't believe him - fine. But if all he wants is recognizing Crimea (which is de facto Russian anyway) and not accepting Ukraine into NATO (there are numerous ways to ensure Ukraine safety without it), why not negotiate.

[agulati]

By the logic of Kyiv having been under Moscow rule, and so it justifies this, should the UK go back and recolonize all their empire? British Raj controlled India, for longer than their independence. Before the British Raj, India, along with many other countries in a similar situation, didn’t necessarily exist in its current form. Does that give them the authority or justification to go back in?

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

Good point - looks like Itse is also from Finland so he has a unique perspective as well given his country borders Russia.

Russia did take some land from Finland. My russian wife was born in Rautu (now Sosnovo) and our kids spend summers there. Finns generally hate it when Russians are talking about expansions and grabbing lands. I understand that.

[FormerPresJamesTaylor]

Kiev is beautiful, can't wait to visit The Ukraine one day