[Trade] Sens trade Lazar and Kostka to the Flames for a 2nd + Jokipakka

[getbak]

Great interview.

Good story about his Draft Combine and sitting down for a couple of hours with Treliving and having a great conversation about hockey and life in general.

[Burner]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

I am alright with a second - not a huge fan of having to protect him in the expansion draft though. Means we are probably comfortable exposing Brouwer.

Would have preferred Strome from the Islanders but a young RH, reclaimation project is what I was hoping for.

if thats the one player that the Flames lose in the expansion draft thats not too bad

[MacDaddy77]

Originally Posted by direwolf

Just heard the Fan960 interview with Lazar. Sounds like a great kid and he's clearly excited to be coming to Calgary. Hopefully he can be successful here.

Link to the interview? just checked website and facebook page and didn't see anything posted

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Anduril

Can't really pick at Treliving picks when the earliest you can evaluate his management is the 2015 draft. He was hired in the end of April 2014 so any scouting work would have been largely done already.

And in 2015 he got Andersson, Kylington, and Mangiapane, all of whom look pretty good. 2016 later picks Parsons, Fox and Dube look pretty good as well.

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by MacDaddy77

Link to the interview? just checked website and facebook page and didn't see anything posted

I think you have to wait now until they put up the 3:00 - 4:00 hour of the Big Show on the Fan960 website.

I liked how in the past they used to break down interviews into on demand segments but unless I'm missing something they stopped doing that and now just put up the shows in hour segments.

[JohnnyTitan]

Originally Posted by polak

I don't care. It's a 2nd round pick.

Here are ~8 years worth of the Flames 2nd round picks. 3rd round in years where we didn't have a 2nd. (Which is fair analysis...because people keep saying this year's 2nds are like 3rds).

Not including the last two years because it's too early to make a call on them.

People are grossly over-estimating what a late 2nd round pick in a poor draft really can become! (Note: this also depicts that the Flames had some bad drafts AND that Sutter really liked to trade his 2nd round picks!)

2005 Gord Baldwin 0GP (3rd)
2006 John Armstrong 0GP (3rd)
2007 John Negrin 3GP (3rd)
2008 Mitch Wahl 0 GP
2009 Ryan Howse 0 GP (3rd)
2010 Max Reinhart 23 GP
2011 Markus Granlund 163 GP
2012 Patrick Sieloff 1 GP
2013 Keegan Kanzig 0 GP (3rd round, after Klimchuk and Poirer in 1st w/ 0 GP)
2014 Mason McDonald and Hunter Smith 0 GP

I would take a flier over Lasar over any of those players minus MAYBE Granlund. And obviously Lasar is 4 years ahead of some kid who's still 17 right now!!

[Miniac]

Im happy for Lazar, good addition for the Flames. I hope he can turn it around.

[Isikiz]

Lazar sounds like a good kid with the right mentality. Hope he puts it together and is super successful.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Would Rasmus Andersson still be on the board in the second round against this year's draft class?

Nope. But that's my whole point - prospects have the best value when you draft them yourself, because the good ones quickly go up in value.

Lazar has a better chance of being a regular NHLer than a 2nd round pick does. No question. He also has a lower ceiling, because some of those 2nd round picks will rapidly go up in value, while at draft+3 the potential of most prospects has been better defined.

That's all polak is saying: You probably won't get a player better than Lazar with a 2nd round pick, but you might get a much better player. It's not the straightforward valuation that some are claiming. Otherwise it would be a no-brainer for a GM to trade away his 2nd every year for a 4th liner.

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Nope. But that's my whole point - prospects have the best value when you draft them yourself, because the good ones quickly go up in value.

Lazar has a better chance of being a regular NHLer than a 2nd round pick does. No question. He also has a lower ceiling, because some of those 2nd round picks will rapidly go up in value, while at draft+3 the potential of most prospects has been better defined.

That's all polak is saying: You probably won't get a player better than Lazar with a 2nd round pick, but you might get a much better player. It's not the straightforward valuation that some are claiming. Otherwise it would be a no-brainer for a GM to trade away his 2nd every year for a 4th liner.

You can't know this. Neither the yet-to-be picked second rounder, nor Lazar's ceiling has been established.

[powderjunkie]

Going back to 2004, I took a look at Calgary and Phoenix (in the time Treliving was there) picks. Many years either team didn't have a pick, so if I noticed an early 3rd/late 1st pick I might have included it.

Calgary 2nd round picks:
53. Andersson
34. Mason McDonald
42. Sieloff
45. Granlund
57. Wotherspoon
64. Max Reinhart (3rd round, but no 2nd in 2010)
48. Mitch Wahl
26. Matt Pelech (late 1st, but no 2nd in 2005)
24. Chris Chucko (ditto)
70. Brandon Prust (3rd)

Phoenix 2nd round picks (Treliving there from 2003-2014):
39. Laurent Dauphin
58. Jordan Martinook
56. Lucas Lessio
57. Oscar Lindberg (115gp so far)
36. Chris Brown
49. Jared Staal
32. Brett MacLean
36. Joel Gistedt
59. Pier-Olivier Pelletier
35. Logan Stephenson
50. Enver Lisin


I'm pretty sure Lindberg was the only guy to exceed 40gp; I think at least half of Phoenix guys were <10 gp. Perhaps it has something to do with lack of picks, but neither Calgary nor Treliving has had any history of finding/developing a Bergeron/Toffoli/Faulk/Keith/etc. type player.

It looks likely that Lazar will be in the realm of Granlund - who appears to be the one probable full time NHLer (Wotherspoon tbd).

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

...That's all polak is saying: You probably won't get a player better than Lazar with a 2nd round pick, but you might get a much better player. It's not the straightforward valuation that some are claiming.

Okay, that is fair. I will only respond by saying that the acquisition cost and the assumed risk in this case are very small, and what I take issue with is the perception that this trade is a detrimental overpayment for the Flames.

If this is indeed polak's argument it is reasonable, but the weight of it is getting lost in what many posters are interpreting from his terseness and his reputation.

[FireGilbert]

I like it. Lazar is an NHL player who adds to the Flames weak right handed depth. I also prefer giving up a draft pick for a younger player instead of an older rental.

Also, the 2nd round pick in a weak draft isn't that big a deal. The Flames have had plenty of draft picks in the past few seasons and still have their 2017 1st at least.

[Buff]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Going back to 2004, I took a look at Calgary and Phoenix (in the time Treliving was there) picks. Many years either team didn't have a pick, so if I noticed an early 3rd/late 1st pick I might have included it.

Calgary 2nd round picks:
53. Andersson
34. Mason McDonald
42. Sieloff
45. Granlund
57. Wotherspoon
64. Max Reinhart (3rd round, but no 2nd in 2010)
48. Mitch Wahl
26. Matt Pelech (late 1st, but no 2nd in 2005)
24. Chris Chucko (ditto)
70. Brandon Prust (3rd)

Phoenix 2nd round picks (Treliving there from 2003-2014):
39. Laurent Dauphin
58. Jordan Martinook
56. Lucas Lessio
57. Oscar Lindberg (115gp so far)
36. Chris Brown
49. Jared Staal
32. Brett MacLean
36. Joel Gistedt
59. Pier-Olivier Pelletier
35. Logan Stephenson
50. Enver Lisin


I'm pretty sure Lindberg was the only guy to exceed 40gp; I think at least half of Phoenix guys were <10 gp. Perhaps it has something to do with lack of picks, but neither Calgary nor Treliving has had any history of finding/developing a Bergeron/Toffoli/Faulk/Keith/etc. type player.

It looks likely that Lazar will be in the realm of Granlund - who appears to be the one probable full time NHLer (Wotherspoon tbd).

Was Treliving in charge of the drafts in Phoenix?

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

That's all polak is saying: You probably won't get a player better than Lazar with a 2nd round pick, but you might get a much better player. It's not the straightforward valuation that some are claiming. Otherwise it would be a no-brainer for a GM to trade away his 2nd every year for a 4th liner.

But the odds of possibly getting a better player are very small to begin with, and even more so in this upcoming draft.

No one said it isn't a gamble, but based on the odds here it looks like a very calculated one.

[etc]

The 2nd rounder could have been used to get a better player in a trade, this is bad value.

[savardandjokinen]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Going back to 2004, I took a look at Calgary and Phoenix (in the time Treliving was there) picks. Many years either team didn't have a pick, so if I noticed an early 3rd/late 1st pick I might have included it.

Calgary 2nd round picks:
53. Andersson
34. Mason McDonald
42. Sieloff
45. Granlund
57. Wotherspoon
64. Max Reinhart (3rd round, but no 2nd in 2010)
48. Mitch Wahl
26. Matt Pelech (late 1st, but no 2nd in 2005)
24. Chris Chucko (ditto)
70. Brandon Prust (3rd)

Phoenix 2nd round picks (Treliving there from 2003-2014):
39. Laurent Dauphin
58. Jordan Martinook
56. Lucas Lessio
57. Oscar Lindberg (115gp so far)
36. Chris Brown
49. Jared Staal
32. Brett MacLean
36. Joel Gistedt
59. Pier-Olivier Pelletier
35. Logan Stephenson
50. Enver Lisin


I'm pretty sure Lindberg was the only guy to exceed 40gp; I think at least half of Phoenix guys were <10 gp. Perhaps it has something to do with lack of picks, but neither Calgary nor Treliving has had any history of finding/developing a Bergeron/Toffoli/Faulk/Keith/etc. type player.

It looks likely that Lazar will be in the realm of Granlund - who appears to be the one probable full time NHLer (Wotherspoon tbd).

I believe martinook and lisin have too, and I could see dauphin doing it too.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by FireGilbert

I like it. Lazar is an NHL player who adds to the Flames weak right handed depth.

Which to me is the merit of this deal - Treliving addressed a position of severe organizational weakness.

[memphusk]

Originally Posted by etc

The 2nd rounder could have been used to get a better player in a trade, this is bad value.

In a bad draft year? What kind of player do you believe Calgary could of picked up? Maybe a Hudler or Russell?

[TheScorpion]

For the first time in recent memory, there are no Finnish players on the Flames.