What are your thoughts on Glen Gulutzan's system?

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

One of the biggest differences I noticed between GG and Hartley is that when one of our D guys jumps up into the offensive zone, there is always a forward who drifts back to cover his spot in case it goes the other way. With Hartley when the D man would carry in deep into the O zone everyone went to the net on the attack which led to a lot of huge advantages for the opposition once the puck went back the other way.

When a forward didn't go cover for a defencemen in Hartley's system, it was called a screw-up.

Hartley's system always had a guy filling-in for a pinching defencemen. It was part of that system. I know how people are loving Gulutzan (and rightfully so!), but Hartley wasn't a trash coach either, and his system wasn't about 'riverboat gambling'. There was a lot of defensive components in his system, and having guys rotate and not allow odd-man rushes was an important attribute. Hartley would be screaming at a guy who didn't cover for the pinching defencemen, especially if it resulted in a turnover and ESPECIALLY if that turnover resulted in an odd-man rush. You must not remember him screaming at Backlund on the bench one game.

My main beef with Hartley's system is the lack of pressure on the opposing team in the defensive zone. Too passive and relied on shot-blocking. I much preferred the aggressive defensive system that the Wild used (and I think I made reference to it last season). Gulutzan seems to be using a variation of that system, and it is really working well. His offensive system was fine - the Flames scored on the rush, and they did the stretch pass, they dumped and chased, and they also did smaller passes when they needed to. I don't see that much of a difference in the offensive side between Hartley and Gulutzan, though Gulutzan emphasizes the short passes more, but he still uses all the other methods to gain the zone as well. All coaches do. Well, all coaches not named Brent Sutter.

Hartley's system was particularly awful when the Flames couldn't find a decent goalie for that stretch last year, as having a passive D led to the other team having more time to get set for a big shot (as long as they could find a lane through the blockers). I think a team that pressures the opposing team a bit more allows for less dangerous shots - even from dangerous spots - as the shooter is just being pressured and doesn't have as much time.

I don't know.. you can go back and forth on things that each coach did well and things you wish improve (and there is always room for improvement). I will definitely say this - I haven't seen this team play this good defensively since the Darryl Years (maybe the Playfair year too).

Remember that Hartley preached physical fitness and worked the Flames hard in practice for a reason. That reason was not just to out-work opponents, but it was because he expected everyone to skate hard on defence. He demanded that forwards come back. His PK was AMAZING the one season (Sportsnet ran a story and broke it down since it was so awesome - people forget that). The results were lousy, and the team was playing jittery as hell - hard to play in front of a goalies that start the year by letting everything past them.

Gulutzan has really started to turn this team around, has really put his stamp on this team, but I really don't think people need to trample all-over Hartley while they do it. Hartley's system for the team was really good for what the team was made up of. Most of all, I am thankful that Hartley was such a good 'teacher' on the ice who regularly took the time to pull a player to the side, and spend a long time explaining and showing them exactly what they needed to improve on. He was a great coach for that time, and unsustainable or not, he made this team play as a very good team and got them into the playoffs that season. He deserves some accolades, regardless if the new coach is better or not.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

The one thing that Gulutzan has been able to do that Hartley could never quite figure out was how to adapt to different teams' style of play. Hartley would just try the same thing over and over, regardless of how the other team was defending or attacking. My biggest beef with Hartley was his inability to make in-game adjustments. Gulutzan has been doing that pretty well.

I've noticed in a couple games now that the system is always there, but they might make an adjustment or two to tweak it in game. For example, the Jets are an all out forecheck team, hoping for mistakes from the other side (not dissimilar from the Flames) but they didn't have enough defensive support after that first wave of forecheckers. I noticed that GG had the defensemen just flip the puck over their heads or lightly bounce it off the glass out of the zone, where 3 of our forwards were waiting for it leading to an odd-man chance. That single-handedly forced the Jets to abandon the aggressive forecheck, and when they didn't, the Flames scored goals.

Then the game before against Arizona, the Coyotes were playing their best version of the Tippett trap style of game, with the odd aggressive play in the offensive zone. The only way to beat that neutral zone system is to make lots of short passes in tight quarters, and occasionally chip it past the defenseman and forecheck like crazy. The Flames were outmatched in the 1st, but then adapted, and over the course of the game eventually won the battles.

I can't remember the team (Anaheim maybe?), but a few games before that, the opposition was taking away everything along the boards, the area the Flames traditionally break out of their zone from. The Flames were getting hemmed in and struggling to get any offensive attack going. GG get his defenders to make the adjustment by carrying the puck out of the zone directly up the middle. All of a sudden the momentum shifts and the Flames skate to an easy victory just from one adjustment.

He hasn't been perfect by any means, but I'm really seeing the value Gulutzan is bringing to this team. I still want to see a full season of his abilities before making a final assessment, but he seems to have things under control for the most part.

[cznTiburon]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

The one thing that Gulutzan has been able to do that Hartley could never quite figure out was how to adapt to different teams' style of play. Hartley would just try the same thing over and over, regardless of how the other team was defending or attacking. My biggest beef with Hartley was his inability to make in-game adjustments. Gulutzan has been doing that pretty well.

I've noticed in a couple games now that the system is always there, but they might make an adjustment or two to tweak it in game. For example, the Jets are an all out forecheck team, hoping for mistakes from the other side (not dissimilar from the Flames) but they didn't have enough defensive support after that first wave of forecheckers. I noticed that GG had the defensemen just flip the puck over their heads or lightly bounce it off the glass out of the zone, where 3 of our forwards were waiting for it leading to an odd-man chance. That single-handedly forced the Jets to abandon the aggressive forecheck, and when they didn't, the Flames scored goals.

Then the game before against Arizona, the Coyotes were playing their best version of the Tippett trap style of game, with the odd aggressive play in the offensive zone. The only way to beat that neutral zone system is to make lots of short passes in tight quarters, and occasionally chip it past the defenseman and forecheck like crazy. The Flames were outmatched in the 1st, but then adapted, and over the course of the game eventually won the battles.

I can't remember the team (Anaheim maybe?), but a few games before that, the opposition was taking away everything along the boards, the area the Flames traditionally break out of their zone from. The Flames were getting hemmed in and struggling to get any offensive attack going. GG get his defenders to make the adjustment by carrying the puck out of the zone directly up the middle. All of a sudden the momentum shifts and the Flames skate to an easy victory just from one adjustment.

He hasn't been perfect by any means, but I'm really seeing the value Gulutzan is bringing to this team. I still want to see a full season of his abilities before making a final assessment, but he seems to have things under control for the most part.

We heard a lot from the flames management as well as some people outside the organization (Tortorella to name one) that GG thinks the game really well and is a great hockey mind. I think that this assessment of the team recently really shows that maybe they know what they are talking about. Now that the flames know the basics to what GG wants they can start making the adjustments he wants and that has benefited them tremendously. It's exciting to watch right now and I am glad we have someone who isn't banging their head against a wall as much as the fans are when things aren't going right.

[GioforPM]

Watching the Jets/Oilers last night it was clear that they have much less structure that the Flames. Lots of giveaways at the blue line - their zone exits were generally terrible, giving rise to scoring chances because the team is all moving forward and not ready to defend (again).

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

The one thing that Gulutzan has been able to do that Hartley could never quite figure out was how to adapt to different teams' style of play. Hartley would just try the same thing over and over, regardless of how the other team was defending or attacking. My biggest beef with Hartley was his inability to make in-game adjustments. Gulutzan has been doing that pretty well.

I've noticed in a couple games now that the system is always there, but they might make an adjustment or two to tweak it in game. For example, the Jets are an all out forecheck team, hoping for mistakes from the other side (not dissimilar from the Flames) but they didn't have enough defensive support after that first wave of forecheckers. I noticed that GG had the defensemen just flip the puck over their heads or lightly bounce it off the glass out of the zone, where 3 of our forwards were waiting for it leading to an odd-man chance. That single-handedly forced the Jets to abandon the aggressive forecheck, and when they didn't, the Flames scored goals.

Then the game before against Arizona, the Coyotes were playing their best version of the Tippett trap style of game, with the odd aggressive play in the offensive zone. The only way to beat that neutral zone system is to make lots of short passes in tight quarters, and occasionally chip it past the defenseman and forecheck like crazy. The Flames were outmatched in the 1st, but then adapted, and over the course of the game eventually won the battles.

I can't remember the team (Anaheim maybe?), but a few games before that, the opposition was taking away everything along the boards, the area the Flames traditionally break out of their zone from. The Flames were getting hemmed in and struggling to get any offensive attack going. GG get his defenders to make the adjustment by carrying the puck out of the zone directly up the middle. All of a sudden the momentum shifts and the Flames skate to an easy victory just from one adjustment.

He hasn't been perfect by any means, but I'm really seeing the value Gulutzan is bringing to this team. I still want to see a full season of his abilities before making a final assessment, but he seems to have things under control for the most part.

Yep, the Flames played one style of hockey under Hartley regardless of the in game context.

So far this season I've seen the Flames lock it down, open it up and play a suffocating forecheck game all in the same period!

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Yep, the Flames played one style of hockey under Hartley regardless of the in game context.

So far this season I've seen the Flames lock it down, open it up and play a suffocating forecheck game all in the same period!

To be fair to Hartley, he usually had a roster of Smurfs to work with. If he had tried to make them lock it down, or worse, play a suffocating forecheck, the sheer epic magnitude of failure would have been hilarious. This year's team has added Tkachuk, Brouwer, Chiasson, and Hathaway, which is a pretty big increase in the beef department.

Some horses can't win on a muddy track, no matter how the jockey chooses to ride them.

[Firebot]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

The one thing that Gulutzan has been able to do that Hartley could never quite figure out was how to adapt to different teams' style of play. Hartley would just try the same thing over and over, regardless of how the other team was defending or attacking. My biggest beef with Hartley was his inability to make in-game adjustments. Gulutzan has been doing that pretty well.

I've noticed in a couple games now that the system is always there, but they might make an adjustment or two to tweak it in game. For example, the Jets are an all out forecheck team, hoping for mistakes from the other side (not dissimilar from the Flames) but they didn't have enough defensive support after that first wave of forecheckers. I noticed that GG had the defensemen just flip the puck over their heads or lightly bounce it off the glass out of the zone, where 3 of our forwards were waiting for it leading to an odd-man chance. That single-handedly forced the Jets to abandon the aggressive forecheck, and when they didn't, the Flames scored goals.

Then the game before against Arizona, the Coyotes were playing their best version of the Tippett trap style of game, with the odd aggressive play in the offensive zone. The only way to beat that neutral zone system is to make lots of short passes in tight quarters, and occasionally chip it past the defenseman and forecheck like crazy. The Flames were outmatched in the 1st, but then adapted, and over the course of the game eventually won the battles.

I can't remember the team (Anaheim maybe?), but a few games before that, the opposition was taking away everything along the boards, the area the Flames traditionally break out of their zone from. The Flames were getting hemmed in and struggling to get any offensive attack going. GG get his defenders to make the adjustment by carrying the puck out of the zone directly up the middle. All of a sudden the momentum shifts and the Flames skate to an easy victory just from one adjustment.

He hasn't been perfect by any means, but I'm really seeing the value Gulutzan is bringing to this team. I still want to see a full season of his abilities before making a final assessment, but he seems to have things under control for the most part.

I don't think it's a coincidence that the 2nd period has been the best period for the Flames of late for the reasons you mention. One thing is that Gulutzan's system uses the board as part of the game very extensively. Almost ever transition on defense happens because of a quick pass using the board to an available player and a pass to centre, or a quick pass to the outside and carried through near the board. Much like Hartley's system of long end to end passes, it can be countered, but What Gulutzan does differently is see how they are being defended against and adapts to beat the opposition's forecheck / defence, not force the system.

Odd man rushes against have been a rarity (mostly caused by Brodie brain farts of late).

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by Stay Golden

It is more Gulutzan has dumped his initial spastic system and they are playing a more traditional break out from the back end. Neutral ice attack. The defensive pairings are what they should have been from the beginning. So yeah congrats for coming back down to common sense instead of his constant experimentations. The boys are playing pretty damn close to what Hartley had in place. With much better goaltending thanks to Johnson.

Ah, the "No true Scotsman" argument.

[tkflames]

Spoiler for Size:

Spoiler!

Full Disclaimer: I was heavily on the anti-GG Bandwagon and I have to admit that I have not fully come around on him yet.

While I do see improvements in the way the team is executing both on special teams and 5 vs 5, I believe that the level of competition has also come down substantially. As you can see from the graph (rolling 3 game average and 10 game average) of competitors points as of December 10th, we faced a much higher level of competition early in the season and have had a pretty good run of playing teams that are performing below league average.

As many have noted, what this shows is that the level of competition will continue to dip (after a quick spike this week) until the midway point of the season. After that, it will be interesting to see if this latest surge is short lived (similar to last year) and a result of an anomoly in the schedule or if this system can be sustained against tougher competition.

Summary: I am still in the wait and see boat until at least game 45.

[bax]

Originally Posted by tkflames

Spoiler for Size:

Spoiler!

Full Disclaimer: I was heavily on the anti-GG Bandwagon and I have to admit that I have not fully come around on him yet.

While I do see improvements in the way the team is executing both on special teams and 5 vs 5, I believe that the level of competition has also come down substantially. As you can see from the graph (rolling 3 game average and 10 game average) of competitors points as of December 10th, we faced a much higher level of competition early in the season and have had a pretty good run of playing teams that are performing below league average.

As many have noted, what this shows is that the level of competition will continue to dip (after a quick spike this week) until the midway point of the season. After that, it will be interesting to see if this latest surge is short lived (similar to last year) and a result of an anomoly in the schedule or if this system can be sustained against tougher competition.

Summary: I am still in the wait and see boat until at least game 45.

If I'm interpreting this correctly (and I may not be) isn't it a little difficult to determine level of competition that early in the season? I mean the Oilers according to their record look like a decent team on paper, but they have been terrible lately.

A team like the stars looks terrible on paper, but they can turn it on any given night. In short, I think there are no easy nights in the NHL and therefore the quality of competition isn't all that important. It depends on streaks, styles, etc.

I think we've seen lately that the flames can win in a multitude of different ways.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by bax

If I'm interpreting this correctly (and I may not be) isn't it a little difficult to determine level of competition that early in the season? I mean the Oilers according to their record look like a decent team on paper, but they have been terrible lately.

A team like the stars looks terrible on paper, but they can turn it on any given night. In short, I think there are no easy nights in the NHL and therefore the quality of competition isn't all that important. It depends on streaks, styles, etc.

I think we've seen lately that the flames can win in a multitude of different ways.

That is what I am seeing. I am not all that persuaded by tkflames rationalization because of how the team is currently playing, and how they are winning games. What good teams are able to do is to play any style against any team in the NHL, and the Flames have demonstrated this ability over the course of the past twenty games or so. This is not something we ever saw last year. While it was awesome to watch when they were winning, Flames games were almost always stroke inducing exercises in which they were constantly on the brink of either winning or losing. This year's team appears much more comfortable gaining the lead and keeping it.

[bax]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

That is what I am seeing. I am not all that persuaded by tkflames rationalization because of how the team is currently playing, and how they are winning games. What good teams are able to do is to play any style against any team in the NHL, and the Flames have demonstrated this ability over the course of the past twenty games or so. This is not something we ever saw last year. While it was awesome to watch when they were winning, Flames games were almost always stroke inducing exercises in which they were constantly on the brink of either winning or losing. This year's team appears much more comfortable gaining the lead and keeping it.

Yes, this is exactly it. Not that the analysis doesn't have any merit, because it very well might, but I just think that it's more coincidence than anything.

Watching the Flames these days, compared to the start of the season is night and day difference. Their play has drastically improved regardless of who they are playing.

[GioforPM]

The "average level of competition" would be more accurate using current points versus points at the time they played. But even then, given that we are nowhere near having the standings settling down, and given that different teams have different issues on a night to night basis (playing backups or having injuries, etc) it's hard to judge claass of competition on a graph.

All I know is that Calgary smacked the Ducks, beat Minnesota, Columbus, Boston, all of which are pretty good teams according to current standings. And they are also now beating teams they should beat -Winnipeg, Toronto, Arizona, etc.

[Enoch Root]

I would put more weight on the level of competition argument if the Flames were consistently losing to good teams and beating weak teams. But it seems to me that it has been more of a case of losing to everybody for the first 16 games, and then beating everybody for the last 15 games.

It is definitely true that the schedule has gotten easier though.

[Enoch Root]

One other comment on that front...

sportsclubstats has the Flames playoff chances at 62.5% on a 50/50 basis, and 61.7% on a weighted basis (which considers quality of competition).

So there is a small 'schedule' factor there, but it doesn't seem significant enough to even discuss, never mind be legitimately concerned about.

[EldrickOnIce]

Sagarin rankings for NHL, including strength of schedule.
Has Flames currently having played 13th toughest schedule.
Interesting to note:
Oilers 22nd most difficult
Canadiens 30th
Teams at bottom of Metro obviously with the hardest schedule.

http://sagarin.com/sports/nhlsend.htm

[tkflames]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

The "average level of competition" would be more accurate using current points versus points at the time they played. But even then, given that we are nowhere near having the standings settling down, and given that different teams have different issues on a night to night basis (playing backups or having injuries, etc) it's hard to judge claass of competition on a graph.

All I know is that Calgary smacked the Ducks, beat Minnesota, Columbus, Boston, all of which are pretty good teams according to current standings. And they are also now beating teams they should beat -Winnipeg, Toronto, Arizona, etc.

To clarify, level of competition is based on the number of points each team had accumulated on December 10th (not based on that point of the season). I figured 30 games was long enough to get a relatively good representation of the level of play of each team.

In hindsight I should have used points percentage instead of points...will update when I get a chance

[tkflames]

Originally Posted by tkflames

To clarify, level of competition is based on the number of points each team had accumulated on December 10th (not based on that point of the season). I figured 30 games was long enough to get a relatively good representation of the level of play of each team.

In hindsight I should have used points percentage instead of points...will update when I get a chance

Let's try this again. This time with basis listed:

Spoiler!

To Clarify Data:

1. The PPG by the competition is the total that any competition had accumulated on December 10th. My logic is that while a team can be hot at the beginning of the season (e.g. the Oilers), by approximately Game 30, a teams level of competition is generally established. Hence the American thanksgiving/playoff phenomenon. There are exceptions to this of course, but this should average out for the most part.

2. The green line is the average PPG accumulated by all NHL teams after 30 games.

3. For the purple line, the way to read this is how good were the last three teams that Flames played at any given time (i.e. breaking the season into 3 game segments from any given game).

4. For the orange line, the way to read this is how good were the last ten teams that Flames played at any given time (i.e. effectively breaking the season into 10 game segments from any given game).

5. To troll the .500 crowd, the NHL average PPG after roughly 30 games is 1.1...is this the new .500?

Assumptions of the Chart:
1. The points of teams accumulated after 30 games is representative of how they will progress.

2. Major changes mid season in player personel are not accounted for (e.g. LA will look representatively weaker because of their performance without Quick/Gaborik/Kopitar etc.)

3. Using a 3 game rolling average, if the team plays a good team and a bad team, this will look the same as playing 2 average teams. I justify this as dismisable as in both scenarios if the Flames are an average team they should be expected to pick up 2 points.

4. This graph does not (and is not meant to address) anecdotal evidence that the team is playing better (i.e. the Flames beat a good team in the ducks 8-3, but lost to a bad team previously). On any given night the Flames can beat a good team or lose to a bad team. Over an 82 game season, this will average out to land the Flames to where they should probably be ranked.

My initial analysis still stands. The team played tougher competition at the beginning of the season and is currently in one of the softest stretches. While there are improvements in how the team is playing from a visual standpoint, I am "cautiously optimistic" that they have in fact turned the corner, but still have concerns that this is overstated given that the level of competition has deteriorated to the worst it will be all season.

[Firebot]

Originally Posted by tkflames

My initial analysis still stands. The team played tougher competition at the beginning of the season and is currently in one of the softest stretches. While there are improvements in how the team is playing from a visual standpoint, I am "cautiously optimistic" that they have in fact turned the corner, but still have concerns that this is overstated given that the level of competition has deteriorated to the worst it will be all season.

They played tougher opponents at the beginning of the year, on a tight schedule, with 6 back to backs played in less than 2 months, with a new coach and new system, and 2 of the top 3 line missing training camp, with a goalie that left in a few soft goals every game.

In other words, the starting record was skewed. They would have had a tough time regardless, but even moreso because of the crazy tough schedule.

And you said it yourself, they have played better competition. They already played the Hawks 3 times. Do you know how many games they play against them the rest of the year? 0. Blues? 1 more game. They have yet to play the Avalanche, have 3 more games against the Coyotes, 4 more games against the Canucks. The Kings are not what they once were. They have more soft games coming up.

Simply put, the Flames were playing several of the best teams in the league multiple times, on the busiest schedule, while learning a new system. Right now they have also been beating good and bad teams equally.

[Bandwagon In Flames]

tkflames if your point is that the Flames are doing well only because they're in an easy stretch of games, I think you are completely out to lunch and have wasted a bunch of time if that was actually the main goal of your analysis.

The Flames have looked great against some of the top teams in the NHL so far this year. When GG's system is being executed properly, it seems to work against any quality of competition.

We are the only team to Shutout Columbus and the only team to beat them in regulation in the past 12 games.

We dominated Anaheim 8-3. A team who routinely makes us look like an AHL team.

We beat Minnesota 2 times and they are a hard team to squeeze points from. They have the highest goal differential in the Western Conference.

We are 1-1 against St. Louis and if not for Elliott we would of won both of them.

We are 1-0 against San Jose.

We are 1-2 against Chicago but we deserved to win the last game.

Worth mentioning the other two good teams in LA and Philly where the Flames looked exhausted and played terrible hockey.

And also we lost our first 3 games against lower competition (Edmonton, Vancouver).

The problem wasn't necessarily the quality of competition, it was the amount of back-to-back games, road games and lack of practices while trying to learn a new system.