*SPOILER DISCUSSION* Star Wars The Force Awakens *POST HERE AFTER SEEING THE MOVIE*

[WhiteTiger]

CC, my only thoughts in expansion to yours on Finn is that he's the unknowing Trooper. Yes, he's been in the First Order since many moons ago, but I kind of thought it more like a theory class vs a practicum. He's trained and trained and trained...which is nothing, the first time a gun with real 'bullets' (or a power clip, in this case, I suppose) is put in his hands and he's told to go and kill those people over there.

It's all well and good to train and practice and all that, but there is a big difference between "I can do this!" in practice to "I can do this!" when you are really shooting at real people.

That's the difference I saw with Finn, and why he had such a hard time of it. Especially after seeing someone who was likely a friend of his gunned down...all of the sudden, this isn't games and paper targets. This is real. And he wanted no part of it.

[Wormius]

It's possible in theory that was the first instance of his troop being told to kill the civilians, as opposed to whatever else the storm troopers were doing previous skirmishes.

[photon]

What makes little sense is later in the film he says he was in sanitation.

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by photon

What makes little sense is later in the film he says he was in sanitation.

Job shadowing?

[photon]

Cross training?

"Everyone that processes garbage must also learn to kill innocent civilians." First Order Employment Manual P.65

[sureLoss]

I have a dread feeling that Finn has an "Order 66", in him somewhere.

edit: Would be a complete blind side if he turned out to be a Knight of Ren in the next couple of movies.

edit 2: Now that I think about it Finn as a Knight of Ren makes no sense.

[V]

I thought BB8 flipped Fin the bird, and wasn't a thumbs up. That's how I saw it.

[Hockey_Ninja]

Some people think that Finn is force sensitive hench why he was able to not be brainwashed into killing. Although I think that would be kinda predictable.

[CaptainCrunch]

K I've been drinking bailey's by the fire and thinking about this movie, and I want to start breaking down some questions, and throwing up some thoughts. So where do I want to start

Who the heck is Rey?

In a movie where major character background stories weren't really explored that deeply, Rey got the full exposition. What we know about Rey is

She's extremely strong in the force and can use it instinctively.

She has a connection with Kylo Ren, managed to repulse his mind probes and actually read his mind.

She fought him to a stand still and inflicted major damage on him

She might have been at the Jedi Academy, I'm not sure if the vision specifically says that she was there, or if she was seeing it happen. She also saw the hallway where Luke and Vader fought on Bespin, saw the battle with Ren, and remembered being handed off to Max Syndows character at a very young age, perhaps to be hidden from the First order or saved from it, or saved by Ren.

During her vision, we heard Obi Wan's voice as he called her name and made the comment about her taking her first steps . We also heard Yoda but I had trouble making out what the voice was saying.

Right now the prevailing theories are two fold, one that she is Kylo Ren's sister, the other that she is Luke Skywalkers daughter.

First of all, I believe overwhelming that she is not a Solo. As much as we want to have the Jacen and Jaina connection from the Legends EU, and JJ used the name Ben who in the novels was a Skywalker not a solo, it doesn't make a lot of sense.

First of all, there was a lack of familiarity and mystery to the Solo theory. While Leia and Solo talked about their son privately they never talked about their daughter once. The only part that comes close was when Maz asks Solo who the girl is and then the movie cuts away.

Second of all, it makes logical sense that maybe Leia simply doesn't know that this is her daughter. But in the past we've seen that Leia's fledging power in the force certainly involved the people around her.

She remembered her mother and described her as kind and sad even though she had only meant her as an infant.

In Return of the Jedi, when Luke tells her that they're brother and sister she remarks that "She knew, somehow she always knew". So its not logical to assume that she wouldn't sense that this was her daughter if she was one.

Also at the point where Rey and Leia meet with Solo there, it wouldn't make sense to continue to hide her identity from her.

Some people also argue that Solo was nearby because he was protecting his daughter. But Solo had lost the Falcon years ago on Jakku where his daughter was and the only reason why they found each other was the Solo was scanning for the Falcon.

So if she isn't Kylo's sister, then why was he so conflicted with her, and offering to teach her the ways of the Force?

The second theory is that she's Luke's daughter, and this makes even more sense. The underlying theory is that Luke couldn't have a daughter because the Jedi forbade attachments.

However we know from Canon that the Jedi ideals changed with order 66 and Yoda getting trashed by Sidious. They decided that instead of raising Luke as part of a Jedi tradition of training from birth and expunging those dangerous emotions, they left Luke to find his own way within the Force. Yoda even mentioned in the ROTS novels that the Jedi needed to evolve, and some emotional attachment or base emotions could probably help a Jedi.

Since Leia had sent Kylo to the academy because she feared that her son had too much of her father in him, its logical that he would have run into a much younger Rey at the academy, and possibly even befriended her. We know that Luke would have sensed his daughter's latent power in the force and wanted to keep her near.

Now whether Rey was his cousin or not doesn't necessarily explain why she was spared, in fact it doesn't even confirm that she was at the Jedi Academy, the visions could have been from the view point of Luke at the academy when the betrayal happened, and she was hidden away by Luke after the slaughter to hide her from the resurgent darkside.

There wasn't even any real indication that Solo and Leia would have known that Luke had a child. We certainly didn't see the familiar relationship between an aunt and uncle and their niece and again there's no reason for Leia to hide her identity from Rey before sending her off to meet the father.

I just firmly think she's Skywalker's daughter because of her reaction to his lightsaber and the familiarity with it, and her latent powers with the force point to her being part of the Skywalker line.

Another theory is that she is the off spring of Ben Kenobi, but First of all Kenobi was a traditional Jedi who didn't really have a deep love affair with any one, we did see one hinted at in TCW series with Satine, but Kenobi if he did fall and love and had a child would have likely left the Jedi Order. Plus if she was Kenobi's child she would have been nearly 40 in this movie.

The final theory is that she's not related to anyone, that she was a child at the Academy that fostered a relationship with a confused Ben Solo, who when the time came for the betrayal couldn't bring himself to kill or sacrifice her.

I tend to think that the safest bet is that she is a Skywalker but not Kylo's sister, I'm not sure that the behaviors of the main characters confirm this nor does Luke's reaction to her at the end, I think its clear that he knew she was coming, I figure that he triggered R2's awakening when he felt Rey's awareness of the Force fully awaken and R2 was fully free to complete his mission of completing the map. However Luke's reaction was fairly stoic for someone who's meeting his daughter for the first time in a long time, and remember Luke was able to genuinely foster attachments. His reactions to seeing Leia and Han again at the end of ROTJ proves that.

But the logical thing is that Rey is a Skywalker, since the entire series of movies is about the Skywalker family.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by WhiteTiger

CC, my only thoughts in expansion to yours on Finn is that he's the unknowing Trooper. Yes, he's been in the First Order since many moons ago, but I kind of thought it more like a theory class vs a practicum. He's trained and trained and trained...which is nothing, the first time a gun with real 'bullets' (or a power clip, in this case, I suppose) is put in his hands and he's told to go and kill those people over there.

It's all well and good to train and practice and all that, but there is a big difference between "I can do this!" in practice to "I can do this!" when you are really shooting at real people.

That's the difference I saw with Finn, and why he had such a hard time of it. Especially after seeing someone who was likely a friend of his gunned down...all of the sudden, this isn't games and paper targets. This is real. And he wanted no part of it.

I think it was a bit of a thing to me, especially when Kylo talks to Hux about the use of Clone Troopers, and Hux replies that his clones are basically every bit as good as the Clones were.

Since we didn't see any of the other Troopers blanching at the actions of the first order, I would expect that there was a lot of indoctrination in their training.

Like I said, I have trouble seeing a person raised from his crib to be a soldier in the first order would blanche so quickly at the sight of these atrocities.

He clearly didn't have troubles working at the Star Killer base as he willingly entered the combat against the villagers and didn't seem to have his moment until he saw the one trooper die.

Like I said, maybe its nitpicking but he didn't act like a soldier that had been trained from the grave to simply fight, and do sanitation work.

I just think it would have been better if he had been wearing the Orange markings of a Storm Trooper NCO and had seen enough death and destruction in his life to want to leave it.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by V

I thought BB8 flipped Fin the bird, and wasn't a thumbs up. That's how I saw it.

I thought it was a thumbs up after BB agreed to basically protect Fin's secret and Fin gave him the thumbs up.

If it was Chopper from Rebels it wold be the middle finger, followed by Chopper trying to kill him.

[Wormius]

The problem I have with her being Luke's daughter is that she was dropped off virtually alone on Jakku without anyone really nobody watching over her. That would make more sense for a non-familial Jedi Academy student, but for Luke's own daughter, I don't see it.

I guess there is not much evidence that she wasn't watched over, but nothing in the movie suggested that there was somebody making sure no harm came to her.

Edit: Oops, I guess Max Von Sydow was there. Thought that was a different planet for some reason from where Finn and Poe and BB8 first encountered each other in the village.

[CaptainCrunch]

Yeah, they kind of flipped that didn't they. I made an assumption that Lor San at least watched over her.

[RW99]

Finally saw it tonight, 8.5/10, maybe a little high just for nostalgia sake. Where it lost points for me was the story, they rehashed two old plots. First the 'Jedi Master that has been hiding for 20 years, we need you back' story. But secondly and more unfortunate was the 'massive planet killer destroyed right before it can take out the good guys' story. Otherwise I'm looking forward to more, JJ didn't screw it up so I'm fairly happy.

And I'm so glad I dont have to tip toe around the internet anymore. Had to block voice and text chat in my games just to be sure

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Yeah, they kind of flipped that didn't they. I made an assumption that Lor San at least watched over her.

Yeah. Forgot that Finn and Poe crash landed back on the planet they were just on.

Anyway, still hoping for Rey to be somebody not related to Luke. It comes off a bit too easy that she is Luke's offspring. I am almost wishing for something even a little contrived if it results in Rey not being a direct descendant. As long as it's properly worked into the script.

[Knut]

CC : love the analysis. Really fills in holes for someone that has not read much of The EU.

Fin leaving the order is believable to me. While they are menacing they are obviously not with out their faults. Hux seemed out of his element and Kylo was wavering in commitment

[AC]

I'm almost positive its a red herring that Rey is Luke's daughter now.

The original trailer used the Luke dialogue he said to Leia from the OT and modified it to suggest he was saying someone in this film was Luke's child.

That, coupled with all the smaller hints seem way too obvious now. Gotta be a misdirect IMO.

[dammage79]

There's a theory floating around that Rey is familiar to the Skywalkers even though the Skywalkers don't really know who she is, is because she is Anakin reincarnate. If mitichlorians grind your gears, this theory will too. Main point was Luke never had such a strong force reaction to his fathers lightsaber. Rey having so much clarity on past events in her flashback even though she was born what? 15 years later?

I did have a theory that Vader hired someone to create his own progeny. And Rey is just that. Just never got completed until much later.

I do have a strong feeling Luke knows her.Knew about her and organized her exile to Jaaku with Max Von Sydow.

And apparently Von Sydows character is in fact Kanan Jarrus from Rebels. Which if you're following S02, Kanan and crew are preventing the inquisitors from collecting force sensitives. So maybe Rey is just one of them without being a Skywalker in any form.

Rebels is now official canon so I can only assume they really want to tie something from the series into the films.

[CaptainCrunch]

Actually the Lor San Tekka is Kaanan is a fan based theory floated around the web and makes an appearance in this very thread (See I did read it), and its based around similarities between Max Von Syndow's appearance and Kaanans.

Bit I don't believe that it true. First of all they would have announced it somehow but Lor San Tekka was a throw away character to show how ruthless Kylo was.

On top of it the secret of what happens to Kaanan, Ashoka and Ezra is contained in ANH.

To set the scene, in Rebels we know that Grand Moff Tarkin is well aware of the rebel band and the Jedi within it as he was involved the the capture and interrogation of Kaanan, and knows of Ezra Bridger. Its also likely to assume that he knows of Ashoka.

However and here is the kicker, from ANH

Darth Vader: He is here.
Governor Tarkin: Obi-Wan Kenobi? What makes you think so?
Darth Vader: A tremor in the Force. The last time I felt it was in the presence of my old master.
Governor Tarkin: Surely he must be dead by now.
Darth Vader: Don't underestimate the Force.
Governor Tarkin: The Jedi are extinct, their fire has gone out of the universe. You, my friend, are all that's left of their religion.

This to me points out that Kaanan, Ezra and Ashoka are pretty much either dead or not involved in the Force by the time ANH happens.

There would be no reason for Tarkin and Vader to lie to each other.

I believe that Max's character was a believer in the Force as he was part of the church of the force according to his bio, but I don't believe he was a force user, he didn't seem to sense the incoming imperial attack nor Ren approaching the settlement.

[CaptainCrunch]

As for the first part, please god no, I would truly hate that if Rey was a lab creation or a creation of the force.

The prophesy is about Anakin Skywalker bringing balance to the force, but that's already in jeopardy, but I'll get into that when I talk about Snoke and his relationship to this movie.