[News] Flames scratch Sven...again

[strombad]

Originally Posted by Dion

Flames mngt didn't handle the Savard/Gilbert feud well. First they got rid of Savard and then Gilbert. Fire Gilbert first and see how Savard does under a new coach.

Why do people constantly bring up Savard or St.Louis like those situations are applicable? They happened 15 years ago, I believe there are zero decision makers still around from 15 years ago, can't we let it go?

St.Louis has also gone on record as saying his treatment in Calgary is what turned him into the complete player he is today, he looks back appreciatively on what they did for his game.

If we're going to go back 15 years to say we hurt rookies, why not cherry pick any old player? Iginla, Phaneuf, Fleury, Roberts, Nieuwendyk, Morris. We just seem to ruin every draft pick.

[Bourque's Twin]

Originally Posted by The Ditch

The coaches are with him everyday, the gm and president are familiar with him as well. So I guess the question is, do you trust the coaches judgement or not.

Speculation and rumour it seems like he currently has an attitude problem, I'll side with the coaches for now.

I really hope it's not the truth but anything is possible.

One thing I noticed, which could easily be nothing, is the goal that D. Jones scored against Vancouver to send it into OT this year. The clip of the bench shows everyone go crazy when the Flames scored, except Baertschi...

I could easily be reading way too far into it, but it struck me as odd. You're playing against your rival in your own building and your team scores with less than a minute left with a pulled goalie to send it into OT and you don't show any emotion?

[moon]

Originally Posted by Corral

There are plenty of other examples to demonstrate that someone with exceptional skill at coaching, managing, or playing just never gets a chance in the NHL - it goes unspoken, but it is because they have been expelled from the 'club'. Those who play within the rules, get the best opportunities ...

What examples are there?

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Shouldn't we give him the benefit of the doubt? It seems like the reasonable thing to do in any situation, when observing from outside to give the participants the benefit of the doubt until it becomes clear otherwise. So far as I can tell, Hartley hasn't made any critical errors here, and there is no reason to expect that he is or ought to be making drastic changes, or filing detailed reports to the media.

I agree that he owes the media nothing.

And all else equal, my default position would be to give the coach the benefit of the doubt.

However, there is evidence available. We are not in a blind situation here. Do we know everything that is going on, such as practice and in the room? No of course not.

However, what we have heard from Hartley, and what we have seen on the ice, gives us something to go on. And from that, I have no reason to give him a pass.

Nor do I think there is a reason to assume that the coach does not make errors. Why would I think that? Everyone makes errors.

From the body of evidence in front of me, I think that he has handled the situation poorly and I believe he doesn't like Baertschi.

I don't see any reason why we should simply give the coach a pass.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by ah123

Not really trying to defend Hartley, but I understand what McGrattan and Bouma bring; they are expected to be a physical presence to deter other teams from taking advantage of our skilled players. I have no clue what Jackman brings, nor do I know what is expected from Baertschi or Backlund

With Backlund, I'm not sure. With Baertschi, it's obvious; he is expected to be the player we saw in the home game against the Capitals. He is expected to be that player every night. He has not been that player every night. Hence the need for the message to be sent.

[Enoch Root]

Teaching the kids how to be a better player is all part of development - it is important and necessary, including discipline and benching.

But there is another side to development as well. You have to give them opportunities to grow and develop.

Confidence is also important.

There are times for discipline. And there are times for opportunity and encouragement.

That is my problem with this.

They benched him last game. Nor there is a gaping hole in the lineup and a chance for him to run with it.

But they aren't letting him.

That is a failure IMO.

[FAN]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

That's the part I don't like. The benching is whatever, it's that he doesn't seem to get minutes even when he's dressed. Hopefully that changes after a couple of trades, but as we're seeing right now with holes in the top 6, he still can't seem to get back into the lineup.

It's one of those catch 22 situations. With prospects, it seems the common approach is to either make him earn his minutes or play the hell out of him like a trial by fire. Personally, I think the best approach is to feed a young player steady minutes and reward him with more minutes when he's doing well. And if he manages to string some good games together you steadily increase his minutes. The worse approach IMO is a yoyo approach where a prospect is never given a chance to gain confidence where his minutes and opportunities are all over the place from game to game and in the game itself.

With that said, except for the purposes of a wakeup call, I don't agree with the idea of scratching a player but give him big minutes when he plays. With dressing the best lineup for whatever night's game in mind, how often does it make sense to scratch a top 4 defenseman or 18+ minute forward rather than giving them fewer minutes? Coaches do it all the time of course.

So ya, I don't mind Hartley's approach to developing Sven one bit. If Sven is deemed not good enough to be in the lineup, he shouldn't be given 1st line minutes or 1st unit PP time when he draws back into the lineup. I'm not saying you keep playing him with pluggers and never giving him some chances to play with better offensive players, but Hartley isn't in the wrong if he's not gifting Sven minutes especially since Sven hasn't done much to deserve more minutes.

[Stay Golden]

its going to eventually blow up in the Flames face

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Stay Golden

its going to eventually blow up in the Flames face

Yes because young players have never been made a healthy scratch before.

Better players then Sven have been scratched and have turned out just fine.

And to be clear I don't agree with the decision to bench him again tonight but I also don't know his reaction to being benched last game and didn't see how he responded in practice yesterday.

[btimbit]

Baertschi would have been next to useless against a team like the Blues, has enough trouble not getting checked off the puck against weak teams ffs.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by btimbit

Baertschi would have been next to useless against a team like the Blues, has enough trouble not getting checked off the puck against weak teams ffs.

? You mean kinda like most of the rest of team? Who's he not a better option than?

[Rerun]

[Dion]

Originally Posted by btimbit

Baertschi would have been next to useless against a team like the Blues, has enough trouble not getting checked off the puck against weak teams ffs.

Asking a pylon to score in his place is laughable

[Serapth]

Originally Posted by The Ditch

The coaches are with him everyday, the gm and president are familiar with him as well. So I guess the question is, do you trust the coaches judgement or not.

Less every day.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Dion

The circus going on right now has to be a distraction for the team, much the same way it was between Savard and Gilbert. At some point you have to end it.

How do you know it's a distraction for the team? For all we know, there are 22 other players on the roster that agree he should be scratched.

Hartley doesn't owe us or the media any specifics, especially if they only act to embarrass or alienate Baertschi from team more than just scratching him and keeping it between the players and the coach.

[Serapth]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

How do you know it's a distraction for the team? For all we know, there are 22 other players on the roster that agree he should be scratched.

Hartley doesn't owe us or the media any specifics, especially if they only act to embarrass or alienate Baertschi from team more than just scratching him and keeping it between the players and the coach.

Remember when Burke blasted Sven in the papers and a good dozen players went on record saying nothing but great things about Sven?

Yeah... that.

[Redrum]

Almost glad he's not in the lineup against these dirty pricks. He'd probably have his arm slashed off by the end of the night. St. Louis should've been shorthanded that entire period.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

How do you know it's a distraction for the team? For all we know, there are 22 other players on the roster that agree he should be scratched.

Hartley doesn't owe us or the media any specifics, especially if they only act to embarrass or alienate Baertschi from team more than just scratching him and keeping it between the players and the coach.

So Burke talking about Sven was to embarrass and alienate. Especially when he wasn't being vague about his thoughts about Sven?

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Serapth

Remember when Burke blasted Sven in the papers and a good dozen players went on record saying nothing but great things about Sven?

Yeah... that.

What would you expect them to say publicly? I have never heard a player come out and say; "Ya, he has to work harder and listen to the coach. He really dogs it in practice...".

A good teammate wouldn't do that even if they agreed with the decision. I am sure Sven is a great guy and they all love him. That doesn't mean they disagree with the coach.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Dion

So Burke talking about Sven was to embarrass and alienate. Especially when he wasn't being vague about his thoughts about Sven?

Where did I say that?

Burke saying something is one thing. Hartley then doing the same thing would be nothing more than rubbing his nose in it.

You're saying that Hartley should rub Sven's nose in it? (See what I did there)