Calgary offers picks 6, 22, 28 for the first overall: no dice

[Stealth22]

Originally Posted by Jacks

I wonder if Philly wants to save some money on a buyout.

Briere + 11th for (player/prospect) + 28th
Then at the draft after Col takes Jones 1st overall
6th, 11th & 22nd to Florida for 2nd

Flyers dump Briere, clear 6.5M in desperately needed cap space and still get a first round pick.
Flames have Briere for 2 years while Mackinnon develops.

Edit: Forgot Briere has a no trade and wants to stay out East.

I thought that was pretty good until I read your edit...I forgot that Briere isn't going to waive his no trade haha. Could maybe substitute Briere with Coburn or Grossman, but I doubt they give up the #11 pick.

[cdnsir]

Now that we've "secured" a #2/3 C with Knight. Can we go all in for MacKinnon, and offer the same package to FLA on the condition that Avs picks Jones first?

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by troutman

Would you say STL, SJ, BOS or LA have elite first line forwards?

Yes, definitely.

However I believe team building is about more than just adding skilled goalscorers. And I think that is where EDM has come up short. Part of the reason of the success of teams like BOS and LA is that they have high end talent but also have size and skating. Powerforwards and agitators can be key components of a contending team.

EDM lacks a top two line powerforward (MacTavish, "We need a Lucic type"). EDM lacks size at centre. EDM lacks a Marchand type agitator. Some of the underrated components of our 03-04 run were the powerforward (Simon) and agitator (Nieminen.) EDM does have the goalscoring talent you need but lacks a #1 defensemen, a powerforward, a big top two line centre and an agitator.

Now lets look at Calgary. We lack almost everything. We need goalscoring talent, we need size at centre, we need a powerforward, we need a #1 defenseman, we need an agitator, we need a #1 goalie. Historically it seems obvious that getting a #1 centre outside of the top 5-10 picks in the draft is almost impossible. Getting a true #1 defensemen is just plain hard to do.

If we trade up to get MacKinnon or Barkov we get our franchise #1 centre which solves one major hole. If we don't trade up we have to hope that Monahan/Lindholm can turn into a #1 centre. I don't have any problems trading up to get a #1 centre since it is something we need badly and it is a hard slot to fill. EDM didn't manage to get a #1 centre with size despite having three straight #1 picks.

If we don't trade up we have a couple rolls of the dice at some of the other roles we need. We maybe could land a skilled agitator like Hartman who could be our Marchand. We maybe could trade #22 and #28 for a pick in the teens and grab a defenseman like Zadorov, Morin, Ristolainen who could be big top pairing guys. We could maybe land a powerforward some of the potential ones are Erne, Rychel, or Horvat.

[P-DAZZLE]

Originally Posted by cdnsir

Now that we've "secured" a #2/3 C with Knight. Can we go all in for MacKinnon, and offer the same package to FLA on the condition that Avs picks Jones first?

This may have already been discussed. We know Feaster was talking to Florida. Might just be a matter of if they have an agreement in place and need to wait for Colorado to hit the podium or if Florida declined.

[oldschoolcalgary]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Sure. But people who are assuming the players drafted at 6, 22, and 28 will all reach their projected potential, and then comparing that to McKinnon, are being unrealistic. One of those late first rounders will probably be a marginal NHLer or a bust.

Not sure why this continues to be bandied about, considering the trade proposal has already been rejected by Colorado.

That said, if people are so confident in McKinnon, then Calgary should be adding a Baertschi and/or Gaudreau to the package of picks to move up to 2 (if Colorado does pick Jones).

I don't think people have been equating that any of the picks will, for sure, turn out. Just that Calgary has so many holes that it seems like trying to fill those holes and approaching team building like those teams that have never had the first overall pick and yet are still highly competitive.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Yes, definitely.

I should define what I mean by an "elite" first line forward. Someone that is a perennial all-star, a top 10 scorer and major trophy candidate. I don't see any players like that on STL, SJ, BOS or LA. Joe Thornton used to be that kind of player. Other than that, these teams seem to have many very good players, but no elite forwards. Many ways to skin a cat.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by troutman

I should define what I mean by an "elite" first line forward. Someone that is a perennial all-star, a top 10 scorer and major trophy candidate. I don't see any players like that on STL, SJ, BOS or LA. Joe Thornton used to be that kind of player. Other than that, these teams seem to have many very good players, but no elite forwards. Many ways to skin a cat.

I don't think you draft MacKinnon and expect him to be a top 10 scorer and major trophy candidate. But he has a very high likelihood of being as good as Couture or Bergeron. You win cups with those guys. And you will be a lot less likely to draft a player of that quality at 6-28.

It isn't just about the ceiling; it's about the likelihood of reaching that ceiling. At 5-14, a lot of guys are going to end up being decent 2nd line players. At 15-30, more like 3rd line guys. Sure, some will surprise and outperform their draft ranking. And some will wash out and not even stick in the NHL.

[pikester]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Huh? No one ever said that the Oilers didn't make the right picks and draft as well as they could with what was there. It's just a simple fact that the top 3 or 4 picks in this draft are considered stronger than most of the top 1 or 2 picks in many of the recent drafts.

All I said was that the Oilers don't have franchise player the caliber of what MacKinnon is projected to be, and you came up with some argument about Hall. What are you suggesting with that statement?

I think all he's saying is this;

Hall: 106 Nhl games played, 103 pts + next in line for team captain
MacKinnon: TBA

Taylor Hall IS already cementing himself as a star in the league, proving his abilities as a franchise player that any team could build around. To suggest that the Oilers do not already have a player that is potentially as good or better than MacKinnon is short sighted especially when one side of that arguement is based on hard fact & the other is 100% speculation.

Having said that, I don't see any way the Flames move into that first or second pick without giving up Brodie and/or Baertschi + all their 1st rnd picks which is counterproductive to a team that needs a complete overhaul. I think the Flames would be better off using the 2 earlier picks, & then trying to trade the last 1st rnd pick to aquire a young roster player. Then the work of developing players & chemistry together begins!

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by pikester

I think all he's saying is this;

Hall: 106 Nhl games played, 103 pts + next in line for team captain
MacKinnon: TBA

Taylor Hall IS already cementing himself as a star in the league, proving his abilities as a franchise player that any team could build around. To suggest that the Oilers do not already have a player that is potentially as good or better than MacKinnon is short sighted especially when one side of that arguement is based on hard fact & the other is 100% speculation.

Having said that, I don't see any way the Flames move into that first or second pick without giving up Brodie and/or Baertschi + all their 1st rnd picks which is counterproductive to a team that needs a complete overhaul. I think the Flames would be better off using the 2 earlier picks, & then trying to trade the last 1st rnd pick to aquire a young roster player. Then the work of developing players & chemistry together begins!

Don't know where you got your stat line but it is actually 171gp 145 points.

[atb]

Originally Posted by troutman

I should define what I mean by an "elite" first line forward. Someone that is a perennial all-star, a top 10 scorer and major trophy candidate. I don't see any players like that on STL, SJ, BOS or LA. Joe Thornton used to be that kind of player. Other than that, these teams seem to have many very good players, but no elite forwards. Many ways to skin a cat.

If you look at the last 4 teams to win the Cup, all except for Boston (I'm excluding Seguin) had a top 3 pick impact player in the lineup. Doughty, Kane, Toewes, Crosby, Malkin, Fleury. It's possible build a contending team without these top picks, but it's much more difficult and requires extremely good (and lucky) drafting. Boston and the Detroit are good examples of building a contender through FA and the late draft picks. I'm not saying that having a top pick guarantees a contender alone, (as LA, Chicago, also Pittsburgh also have done well with their later picks) but it can make a difference between being a good team and being a cup contending team.

If the Flames are in the position to trade up and get that impact player in MacKinnon this year, then I really hope they do. It takes 2-3 years for a top pick to start playing an impact role, over that time they can add the supporting players through drafts, trades, and FA.

[pikester]

Originally Posted by Robbob

Don't know where you got your stat line but it is actually 171gp 145 points.

True, I missed '10-'11 season lol. Still, playing a dynamic game improving to put himself 9th in scoring in the league this year which puts him in some pretty elite company & doesn't change anything in regards to his personality, skill, & captain material. This vs MacKinnon not proving a thing yet was the point.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by pikester

I think all he's saying is this;

Hall: 106 Nhl games played, 103 pts + next in line for team captain
MacKinnon: TBA

Then the Memorial Cup comment is even more out of place.

Taylor Hall IS already cementing himself as a star in the league, proving his abilities as a franchise player that any team could build around. To suggest that the Oilers do not already have a player that is potentially as good or better than MacKinnon is short sighted especially when one side of that arguement is based on hard fact & the other is 100% speculation.

Having said that, then there are more than a dozen players from 2010-2012 that are better option to build a team around than MacKinnon, but MacKinnon shouldn't be overlooked because he is only starting out now. The whole idea of trading those picks for MacKinnon is about projecting value.

MacKinnon is the most highly regarded forward prospect since Crosby from almost all accounts I have read (I am not saying he is on the same level). I don't think it's out of line to say that he he projected to be more than Hall.

I totally get that that Hall has 175 NHL games and is established, but that should have no bearing or effect on MacKinnon's forecast at this point. Time will tell if the experts are right about the MacKinnon hype, but I don't see how anyone can deny that he is more hyped than any of the "franchise" players the Oilers drafted in their respective years. That is all I am getting at.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

MacKinnon is the most highly regarded forward prospect since Crosby from almost all accounts I have read (I am not saying he is on the same level). I don't think it's out of line to say that he he projected to be more than Hall.

MacKinnon is statistically slightly under where Hall was when he was drafted, and both play a North-South type of game. The biggest difference I can see is that MacKinnon is a centre.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by SebC

MacKinnon is statistically slightly under where Hall was when he was drafted, and both play a North-South type of game. The biggest difference I can see is that MacKinnon is a centre.

I've only seen MacKinnon a couple of times. From those viewings, I think MacKinnon is superior in 2 ways to Hall:

1) Ability to Use Linemates
2) Mental game to switch gears and not put himself out of position.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

The problem with some of the arguments that revolve around where guys like Bergeron, Weber, Chara, etc were drafted is that the % chance of landing such a player where they were drafted is ridiculously low. We can't rely on getting a #1 d-man or #1 centre in the 2nd or 3rd round. We can't even rely on getting an NHLer in those rounds.

The best chance to land top end talent remains the top 5-10. Yes elite players are drafted outside of that range but at a much lower frequency and you can't rely on it. It is a mistake to focus on the exceptions.

If we deal up we're getting a guy we think is more likely to pan out into a franchise player and he'll pan out most of the time. If we don't deal up we have more rolls of the dice but at a smaller likelihood of landing top line talent.

[ricardodw]

Nothing more than a hunch but I think the Flames will stay with the #6 #22 and #28 and win this draft because in the end no one will trade with them.

Mackinnon is a superior talent but he is the smallest of the 3 big Centre's. At 6' 185 he really does not fit the classic Kopitar, Getzlaff, Malkin, Tavares centre that the Flames need.

Feaster will openly make all sorts of offers and then be forced to pick at #6 and end up with Nurse, Monahan or Nichuskin who are all big and will end up being the best choice that the Flames will only pick because they are forced to. #22 and #28 will also be big gritty and this 2013 draft change the Flames culture.


The best moves that Feaster has made so far were losing out on Richards and the O'Rielly and now maybe missing out on Mackinnon will turn out for the best.


He won the Hudler and Wideman and Cervenka sweepstakes and the Flames ended up as the worst team in their history. He got his way and forced Regehr to waive his NMC.

It is better for the Flames organization when Feaster's grand plans get thwarted.


Imagine the beating that Mackinnon would be targeted for playing on a line with Tanguay and Cammalleri. or Hudler and Baertschi.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by troutman

I should define what I mean by an "elite" first line forward. Someone that is a perennial all-star, a top 10 scorer and major trophy candidate. I don't see any players like that on STL, SJ, BOS or LA. Joe Thornton used to be that kind of player. Other than that, these teams seem to have many very good players, but no elite forwards. Many ways to skin a cat.

That's a pretty narrow definition. There's 90 first line players in the league theoretically. If only the top 10 or so count then I'd call that category something other than elite. Franchise maybe?

I'd have to say that most of Couture, Thornton, Marleau, Krejci, Bergeron, Horton, Lucic, Kopitar, Richards, Carter, and Brown are pretty elite at their position.

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

The problem with some of the arguments that revolve around where guys like Bergeron, Weber, Chara, etc were drafted is that the % chance of landing such a player where they were drafted is ridiculously low. We can't rely on getting a #1 d-man or #1 centre in the 2nd or 3rd round. We can't even rely on getting an NHLer in those rounds.

The best chance to land top end talent remains the top 5-10. Yes elite players are drafted outside of that range but at a much lower frequency and you can't rely on it. It is a mistake to focus on the exceptions.

If we deal up we're getting a guy we think is more likely to pan out into a franchise player and he'll pan out most of the time. If we don't deal up we have more rolls of the dice but at a smaller likelihood of landing top line talent.

The problem is that we don't have enough supporting cast players as of yet in order to drop a superstar into in order to build a contender. A lot of teams try to get their star players first and then the supporting cast after (see Edmonton, NYI, Columbus with Nash etc.), but usually the star's contracts restricts their abilities to surround them properly. We will suck next year and likely the year after enough that we should get a MacKinnon or Drouin type prospect or two, which if you add those guys onto the 3 that we should get this year, it will mean that we'll have a big start on having a solid all round team that could then be on the verge of contending if everything is done right.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

The problem is that we don't have enough supporting cast players as of yet in order to drop a superstar into in order to build a contender. A lot of teams try to get their star players first and then the supporting cast after (see Edmonton, NYI, Columbus with Nash etc.), but usually the star's contracts restricts their abilities to surround them properly. We will suck next year and likely the year after enough that we should get a MacKinnon or Drouin type prospect or two, which if you add those guys onto the 3 that we should get this year, it will mean that we'll have a big start on having a solid all round team that could then be on the verge of contending if everything is done right.

I'm not as convinced that we're a shoe in the next few years to get guys as good as MacKinnon/Barkov. Didn't this year show us how hard it is to get into the bottom 3? Our goaltending was absolutely abysmal and we still finished 6th last. I don't think we can count on a bottom 3 pick in either of the next two years. Any year we can trade up to take a guy that we think is a true franchise player I think you have to do it. The future holds no guarantees of franchise players.

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

I'm not as convinced that we're a shoe in the next few years to get guys as good as MacKinnon/Barkov. Didn't this year show us how hard it is to get into the bottom 3? Our goaltending was absolutely abysmal and we still finished 6th last. I don't think we can count on a bottom 3 pick in either of the next two years. Any year we can trade up to take a guy that we think is a true franchise player I think you have to do it. The future holds no guarantees of franchise players.

Well, we did go on a winning streak on the back of having a bunch of rookies making their NHL debuts after Iginla/Bouwmeester left. Usually, rookies play good for their first couple of games and then trail off. Unfortunately, in terms of our current draft pick, we kept putting new guys in that kept the spark going. If the season was 82 games, we likely would have been 5-10 points worse than everyone else.

Unless we somehow rip off several other teams for legit stars or #6 + Baertschi put up huge numbers, I don't see how we'll be able to get enough points in the standings to be better than other teams. We have no starting goalie, only 3 legit nhl D-men (Gio, Wideman, and Brodie), and 4 second liners in Tanguay, Cammalleri, Glencross and Baertschi. Other than the maybe Panthers, I don't think anyone is worse than the Flames over an 82 game season. Luck can sway a team a bit, but usually a team that's as bad overall as the Flames usually falls in the bottom 5 give or take.

Our team is currently worse than the Oilers teams that kept getting #1.