NRA calls for armed police officers in all U.S. schools

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Daradon

There have been many drunk driving and alcohol related threads in the past Azure. I'm sure even you can remember a few. Don't play that card, cause it ain't true.

EDIT: By 'that card', I simply mean that people (here or otherwise) don't talk and care about that issue. Cause yeah, it is brought up here.

Not dissing your whole alcohol argument in general. Though there are a few things I don't exactly agree with. This was just the most obvious one.

I guess my point is that we don't start an 'ongoing drinking and driving fatality' thread simply because it would be poor taste.

Every single day people are killed by some moron who drinks and then gets behind the wheel, just like every single day people are killed by some moron with a gun.

I know people care. I remember the thread about Daniel Tchetter.

The 'ongoing' thread just seems disgusting because it seems like it is being done to cheerlead the fact that the US is screwed up, and guns are to blame.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Flames in 07

Maybe he sees unfixable deficits, with one of, if not the largest american health problem to be obesity. Possibly he sees that Americans are increasingly losing self control and becoming fatter and fatter.

I don't know, maybe not the best approach, but I haven't heard many better ideas for curbing how fat America is becomming.

I would imagine a much better idea would be to target kids when they are younger, rather than focusing on trying to get grown adults to make better choices.

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by Azure

I guess my point is that we don't start an 'ongoing drinking and driving fatality' thread simply because it would be poor taste.

Every single day people are killed by some moron who drinks and then gets behind the wheel, just like every single day people are killed by some moron with a gun.

I know people care. I remember the thread about Daniel Tchetter.

The 'ongoing' thread just seems disgusting because it seems like it is being done to cheerlead the fact that the US is screwed up, and guns are to blame.

I didn't take 'ongoing' as a way to cheer about how screwed up the US is becoming. I find it quite sad, and presume everyone else does as well. The NRA and their stance now and over the years, at least to me, is very obvious proof of how extreme, uneducated and selfish Americans can be. I don't see anyone cheering about that.

[Daradon]

^^^ Well, all countries have a problem with drinking and driving. Only one (first world anyway) seems to have such a problem with guns. So maybe there IS something screwed up and guns ARE to blame?

Agreed maybe there is a bit of cheerleading, but as I said, the ongoing thread got started because we had three big events right after each other. It wasn't because someone said, 'hmmm I wonder how we can pile on the States right now.'

Lastly, there is a lot of outrage and confusion because there is so much idiocy coming from the pro gun side.

Bad examples like, movies, music, and video games are to blame. Bad suggestions like, let's have a national database of mentally ill people. General combativeness and anger and irresponsibly and uncaring talk from a side has an almost Fruedian/penile attachment to bigger badder firearms.

There IS a big problem. And guns ARE the biggest part of the problem. Yes, I agree there are other issues. But to say guns aren't part of the equation, and attitudes towards them and the 'meaning' of the second amendment aren't messed up...?

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by Azure

I would imagine a much better idea would be to target kids when they are younger, rather than focusing on trying to get grown adults to make better choices.

Yea I agree. Much better. But something is better than nothing, and dismissing Bloomberg because he pushed this agenda isn't a good reason to wipe away his credibility as easily as PMKing did. He's done far more positive for that country than the vast majority of Americans probably understand.

[DuffMan]

Originally Posted by Azure

I guess my point is that we don't start an 'ongoing drinking and driving fatality' thread simply because it would be poor taste.

Every single day people are killed by some moron who drinks and then gets behind the wheel, just like every single day people are killed by some moron with a gun.

I know people care. I remember the thread about Daniel Tchetter.

The 'ongoing' thread just seems disgusting because it seems like it is being done to cheerlead the fact that the US is screwed up, and guns are to blame.

Why isn't there a National Drunks Association that lobbies the govt, and has powerful political allies. An Association that promotes booze in schools, no age checks, trade shows where anyone can buy and sell whatever booze they feel like, no limits on alcohol proof etc etc. sounds crazy eh?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Daradon

^^^ Well, all countries have a problem with drinking and driving. Only one (first world anyway) seems to have such a problem with guns. So maybe there IS something screwed up and guns ARE to blame?

Agreed maybe there is a bit of cheerleading, but as I said, the ongoing thread got started because we had three big events right after each other. It wasn't because someone said, 'hmmm I wonder how we can pile on the States right now.'

Lastly, there is a lot of outrage and confusion because there is so much idiocy coming from the pro gun side.

Bad examples like, movies, music, and video games are to blame. Bad suggestions like, let's have a national database of mentally ill people. General combativeness and anger and irresponsibly and uncaring talk from a side has an almost Fruedian/penile attachment to bigger badder firearms.

There IS a big problem. And guns ARE the biggest part of the problem. Yes, I agree there are other issues. But to say guns aren't part of the equation, and attitudes towards them and the 'meaning' of the second amendment aren't messed up...?

Again, I agree with sensible gun control. I just don't see how an outright ban on anything will work.

Obama has a lot of good ideas. Research on gun violence is also a good idea. Why it was banned for all these years just goes to show who controls things in the US.

There is overwhelming evidence that the vast majority of crime can be attributed to social conditions. Majority of gun crime is the same way. Interestingly enough, the US has a huge problem with poverty, welfare and an effective social safety net.

So yes I think the debate is being framed the wrong way. Gun control is a small part of the solution.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by DuffMan

Why isn't there a National Drunks Association that lobbies the govt, and has powerful political allies. An Association that promotes booze in schools, no age checks, trade shows where anyone can buy and sell whatever booze they feel like, no limits on alcohol proof etc etc. sounds crazy eh?

Except nobody here is saying any of that is a good thing.

Try again.

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by Azure

Again, I agree with sensible gun control. I just don't see how an outright ban on anything will work.

Obama has a lot of good ideas. Research on gun violence is also a good idea. Why it was banned for all these years just goes to show who controls things in the US.

There is overwhelming evidence that the vast majority of crime can be attributed to social conditions. Majority of gun crime is the same way. Interestingly enough, the US has a huge problem with poverty, welfare and an effective social safety net.

So yes I think the debate is being framed the wrong way. Gun control is a small part of the solution.

I know you personally agree with the current recommendations, and are a small c conservative. I wasn't arguing against you. Just the idea that these recommendations of Obama's have met such vitriol and excitement even though very few of them actually even focus on guns themselves.

Most of them are just common sense. Head up the ATF. Start tracking and recording gun crimes, allow studies. Shoot, I don't even remember if he even actually asked for more controls and data on selling. I don't think he did. Even that would be a small but obviously needed step. But I don't even think it went that far.

But no, the NRA and various groups have whipped it up into such a debate, and so many people are drinking the kool-aid. So many people don't even know what they are fighting for, they are so ill informed. They just 'know' that Obama wants to take away their guns and that they hate him for it. They can't name you any of the recommendations. They don't know that gun measures and control up to this point actually REALXED under Obama. Nope.

So of course people on this side are going to start getting frustrated. Look at every little incident. Make fun, take pot shots. Maybe it isn't correct, maybe it doesn't help the argument, but when one side is so blind and so vicious, what do you expect?

(I'll get to your point about correctly framing the debate in my next post here)

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Azure

Anyone can make beer. The rest is a bit more complicated.

And considering the US has a huge drug problem, I disagree that 'guns can be effectively' banned.

If you can make beer you can make moonshine, not that everyone has to, just a enough to fill the supply.

I have no doubt if there was a comprehensive ban on firearms in the US the supply would be pretty much limited to existing guns, and would slowely dwindle away, as the supply got short the price would rise effectively taking guns out of 'street crime' level, at this stage it might be economic to smuggle small amounts of guns in from where ever to sell to the limited market that would be prepared to pay a large amount of money and take a large risk to have one.

It would obviously take a decade or so but it would be relatively easy to take guns down to canadian levels both criminally and legal.

All this assumes the US populace would want this and they obviously dont.

[Daradon]

See, I actually DO think guns are the largest part of the problem.

Yes, bad social circumstance and conditions cause crime. Of course. Doesn't get much more basic than that.

But the US isn't the only country with poor people. The US isn't the only country with people who are disenfranchised, alone, confused, messed up, ill, etc.

That's pretty universal.

I guess you can argue that the US does have worse social programs than say Canada, France, Scandinavia, etc.

But there are lots of second world nations, with multitudes of poor, that don't match these first world programs.

And no, they aren't offing themselves in record numbers either.

I have been arguing for better social programs in the States since I got on this board. They do need to treat their neighbors better, stop looking at individual rights as higher than social responsibilities and common good.

But that's a much tougher argument and solution over many many topics.

However, on this topic, there is one clear answer that everyone else can see.

The number one factor is gun violence is... surprise surprise... GUNS.

That stats show it, the comparisons to other nations show it. Only one group of people choose to ignore it and throw out all the usual boogeymen. Why is that?

Occam's Razor man.

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by Azure

Again, I agree with sensible gun control. I just don't see how an outright ban on anything will work.

No one can take a bold stance advocating nothing quite as predictably as you Azure.

[Daradon]

Yeah, no one is banning all guns man. What is that argument method where someone boils down the other sides stance to a ridiculous and absurd end point through a slippery slope reductionism?

No one is suggesting a complete ban on guns. Not even close. We aren't, Democrats aren't, concerned parents aren't. Obama isn't.

No one.

[SeeBass]

Originally Posted by Azure

And yet even with all those controls in place, roughly 15,000 people are killed each year in the US due to drinking and driving. According to Wikipedia, there were roughly 12,000 homicides with a gun in 2010.

You can add a bunch more deaths due to alcohol if you want to go down the health road.

I don't see anyone starting a thread talking about 'alcohol related deaths'...and yet according to the statistics, you are more likely to be killed by someone who has been drinking than you are to be killed by a 'gun.'

Of course, we all know banning alcohol isn't the solution, so we're stuck with the laws that we have now, and a strong focus on teaching kids to 'drink safely.' Hopefully.

Same thing can be said with guns. There are literally millions upon millions of gun owners in the US and Canada who are responsible about gun safety. Many of them have owned assault rifles for 'years.'

Just like there are millions of people who drink responsibly.

Which is exactly my point. There are a few people mucking all this up for those of us who are responsible.

And for the record, I agree for most of the measures President Obama proposed.

You left out strict new drinking and driving laws were enacted 20 years ago and has cut drinking and driving deaths by 2/3rds

[Azure]

And that makes it better? I can use the same argument since gun ownership and gun crime has also been dropping.

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by Azure

And that makes it better? I can use the same argument since gun ownership and gun crime has also been dropping

Please do.

Drunk driving deaths were seen to be a problem, so an extensive solution including new laws, increased enforcement, and a public awareness campaign dropped the frequency of these deaths dramatically, but did not eliminate them completely.
No one would claim these efforts were wasteful, nor that the outcome was undesirable.

Replace "drunk driving deaths" with "mass shootings" and that's really what the anti-gun crowd is advocating. The success of these exact tactics is an outstanding justification for trying them to reduce mass shootings.

If you can take that argument and introduce:
-the reduction of gun owners
-the increase of guns
-the frequency of mass shootings in this one culture
-the decrease of violent crime across all (comparable) cultures
and form that into a cohesive argument for being against these tactics, I would love to see it.

I'm pretty sure you won't try, you're just yearning for a "I'm just a reasonable freedom-lover that gets picked on" self-pity post.

[Azure]

It must be nice to live in such a black and white world where the only 'solution' is an outright ultimatum on whatever the issue is.

Of course, this has been your argument in every single thread you have ever been involved in, and anyone that disagrees with that 'black and white' interpretation is 'labeled' according to your flavor of the day.

Of course reality is so much different.

An outright ban won't work. The only ones advocating for that are people that don't own firearms. It is afterall quite easy to want to ban something you don't like.

The only thing that will work and HAS worked is sensible solutions like magazine size restrictions, mandatory safety courses, mandatory 2 week waiting periods, background checks....and MORE gun safety courses.

These are things I have supported all along. I have also said I agree with many of the things Obama proposed, if not all of them.

But hey, its more fun to ignore that and stick to the labels, isn't it?

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Azure

It must be nice to live in such a black and white world where the only 'solution' is an outright ultimatum on whatever the issue is.

Of course, this has been your argument in every single thread you have ever been involved in, and anyone that disagrees with that 'black and white' interpretation is 'labeled' according to your flavor of the day.

Of course reality is so much different.

An outright ban won't work. The only ones advocating for that are people that don't own firearms. It is afterall quite easy to want to ban something you don't like.

The only thing that will work and HAS worked is sensible solutions like magazine size restrictions, mandatory safety courses, mandatory 2 week waiting periods, background checks....and MORE gun safety courses.

These are things I have supported all along. I have also said I agree with many of the things Obama proposed, if not all of them.

But hey, its more fun to ignore that and stick to the labels, isn't it?

What the US really needs, but will not get, is pretty much an outright ban on handguns, they are the largest cause of death and the least usefull for anything other than shooting your wife, boss or yourself. They are essentially the gun of choice for the casual buffoon who should never really have a gun.

Couple that with a ban on bulletproof vests, a law that required every gun owner to have a gun cabinet (and no purchase of gun or ammo without this being verified) and keep guns under lock and key with, at least at first, severe penalties if a person is found to have breached them.

Compared to handguns assault rifles are meaningless statistically.