Libya headed for civil war? Update: Gadhafi dead

[NuclearPizzaMan]

Originally Posted by Canuck-Hater

RT America is based out of Washington DC. If its so anti-western why are they allowed to broadcast in the United States?

Because despite your N.W.O illuminati 9/11 causing "telling it like it is" viewpoint, jackbooted socialist Obamatroopers don't shut people down just because what they say is stupid.

yet.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Canuck-Hater

Even if Gadaffi was in the school, its still a civilian target. So lets sacrifice the lives of 20 kids to kill 1 man?

What if that one man is potentially responsible for the deaths of 1000 people in the future? War isn't so simple and constantly involves making very difficult decisions.

Basically all international law blames the people hiding behind the civilian shields for the deaths of those people and with good reason.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Canuck-Hater

RT America is based out of Washington DC. If its so anti-western why are they allowed to broadcast in the United States?

RT has a headquarters in Washington, but remains based out of Russia. Big difference.

And like othe posters have said, despite all the conspiracy theories about America, they have some of they value freedom of the press/speech more than the vast majority of other countreis in the world.

I'm not saying you shouldn't watch other perspectives like RT, but be aware who is behind their programming (the Russian government in this case) and what agenda they are pushing.

[Barnes]

Originally Posted by Canuck-Hater

Even if Gadaffi was in the school, its still a civilian target. So lets sacrifice the lives of 20 kids to kill 1 man?

As per the Geneva convention? No. But that's not what happened, is it?

[RedJester]

Originally Posted by Canuck-Hater

Even if Gadaffi was in the school, its still a civilian target. So lets sacrifice the lives of 20 kids to kill 1 man?

It's no longer a civilian target if it's been commandeered by military forces, and in particular, military forces that are hostile towards civilians/rebels.

In fact, the civilian targets in this case are the ones who would have been placed in jeopardy if NATO didn't intervene.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by Canuck-Hater

Actually there its an American news agency as well. They tell it like it is, unlike most of the popular media outlets who continually lie and put a spin on information to make more profits. Thats okay never question anything, just stay docile and dumb because they are always right.

Now I know what you mean with Canuck-Hater.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Canuck-Hater

NATO has attacked numerous civilian targets. I dont see how that is killing Gaddafi sympathizers. Doesnt sound very humanitarian to me.

http://af.reuters.com/article/libyaN...BrandChannel=0

A school is one of the many civilian buildings NATO has targeted. Lucky for them there were no children inside at the time. Just the fact that the school was targeted raises many red flags.

http://www.france24.com/en/20110619-...-arada-tripoli

Its all documented. I will agree that Gadaffi is probably guilty as charged but NATO isnt totally innocent in all of this.

In the first article it wasn't a school anymore, it sounds like it had been taken by Ghadafi's forces to use as a command and control structure.

You failed to read the second article where it takes about the civilian casualties being caused by a malfunctioning weapon and that Nato was not deliberately targeting civilians unlike Ghadafi.

Unfortunately accidental civilian deaths happen in war, but you aren't proving that NATO is some all encompassing force for evil in the world.

I don't know if your failing to understand something but Ghadafi was butchering his people to hold onto his power, the will of the people is that he should get gone, and NATO volunteered to help, the price to that help is that no matter how much NATO tries to avoid it, and there have been documented articles where NATO has aborted bombing missions to avoid civilian casualties that could have accelerated the destruction of Ghadafi's forces, that there will be innocent lives lost.

Unfortunately that's something thats not advertised in video games where all weapons work perfectly and hit with pin point accuracy.

[Calgaryborn]

Australian radio was reporting that British and French troops were doing more on the ground that adentifying bombing targets. They are providing weapons and training. They are also coordinating bombing strikes with the Rebels. This is the reason why the Rebels have quickly gone from have a stalemate to near victory.

There is no confirmed reports that American or Canadian troops have had a part in this. There is a lot of speculation that at least America has been involved.

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

You failed to read the second article where it takes about the civilian casualties being caused by a malfunctioning weapon and that Nato was not deliberately targeting civilians unlike Ghadafi.

I don't know if your failing to understand something but Ghadafi was butchering his people to hold onto his power, the will of the people is that he should get gone, and NATO volunteered to help, the price to that help is that no matter how much NATO tries to avoid it, and there have been documented articles where NATO has aborted bombing missions to avoid civilian casualties that could have accelerated the destruction of Ghadafi's forces, that there will be innocent lives lost.

Captain, .....I still have not seen any proof that Ghadafi was "butchering" un-armed civilian protestors. I'm not saying he is some nice guy, but Robert Gates himself said the reports were unconfirmed. If you could direct me to where there is proof of this I would appreciate....

It looks to me like Libya is quite fractured, with many tribes fighting for power. There was pro-Ghadafi rallies in Tripoli weeks ago with some reports suggesting more than half a million people showed up for, so no I don't quite buy the rhetoric that Ghadafi is some massively unpopular figure.

This is NATO interference in a civil war.....to set things up nicely so that western companies can do business un-abated.

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by ernie

That is typically how you win a WAR

Peace comes after the WAR is won (hopefully).

Curious thoughts/comments

NATO is not supposed to be involved in a war.

Remember? This is a "no-fly-zone" for "humanitarian" purposes.

The war is between the NATO-armed eastern rebel tribes and Ghadafi.

I love how the rebels set up a new central bank way back in March. Yeah, ...like the rag-tag rebels know a damn thing about central banking or setting up a new national oil company.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/42308613/Liby...n_Central_Bank

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

NATO is not supposed to be involved in a war.

Remember? This is a "no-fly-zone" for "humanitarian" purposes.

The war is between the NATO-armed eastern rebel tribes and Ghadafi.

I love how the rebels set up a new central bank way back in March. Yeah, ...like the rag-tag rebels know a damn thing about central banking or setting up a new national oil company.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/42308613/Liby...n_Central_Bank

You seem to forget that there was a vote at the UN security council concerning airstrikes to protect Libyan's from Ghadafi's military forces and the final vote was 10 in favor 0 against and 5 non votes, so yes the UN was aware of and voted for the use of Airstrikes to protect Libyan civilians and destroy Libya's military ability to take action against their own people.

"all necessary measures short of an occupation force" to protect civilians.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

NATO is not supposed to be involved in a war.

Remember? This is a "no-fly-zone" for "humanitarian" purposes.

The war is between the NATO-armed eastern rebel tribes and Ghadafi.

I love how the rebels set up a new central bank way back in March. Yeah, ...like the rag-tag rebels know a damn thing about central banking or setting up a new national oil company.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/42308613/Liby...n_Central_Bank

I think you have every right to be suspicious of NATOs aims as looking at who these rebel leaders are, throws up some red flags.

Two other men have proved important in representing the rebels to the outside world: Mahmoud Jebril, who as head of the country's National Economic Development Council had fostered privatization of state-run industries

http://www.voanews.com/english/news/...128183633.html

It looks like big oil is going to win, but despite this I think it's a good thing that the people can get rid of this tin pot dictator and have a chance at democracy.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

Captain, .....I still have not seen any proof that Ghadafi was "butchering" un-armed civilian protestors. I'm not saying he is some nice guy, but Robert Gates himself said the reports were unconfirmed. If you could direct me to where there is proof of this I would appreciate....

It looks to me like Libya is quite fractured, with many tribes fighting for power. There was pro-Ghadafi rallies in Tripoli weeks ago with some reports suggesting more than half a million people showed up for, so no I don't quite buy the rhetoric that Ghadafi is some massively unpopular figure.

This is NATO interference in a civil war.....to set things up nicely so that western companies can do business un-abated.

You know its funny but there used to be massively well attended rallies for Hitler, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot as well. In fact massively well attended rallies in support of a glorious leader are a sure sign of a brutal dictatorship holding their population in absolute fear, after all how many of us would bother to turn out in support of Harper or Layton, knowing full well we won't be shoot if we dont.

[HPLovecraft]

Scud missiles have apparently been launched at Misrata. They were intercepted by an American AEGIS cruiser just before impact. NATO spokesperson confirms they registered Scud missiles launches from Sirt.

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by HPLovecraft

Scud missiles have apparently been launched at Misrata. They were intercepted by an American AEGIS cruiser just before impact. NATO spokesperson confirms they registered Scud missiles launches from Sirt.

Bah. No doubt NATO launched these themselves as a pretext for removing the Libyan people's universally beloved and democratically elected leader...

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

You know its funny but there used to be massively well attended rallies for Hitler, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot as well. In fact massively well attended rallies in support of a glorious leader are a sure sign of a brutal dictatorship holding their population in absolute fear, after all how many of us would bother to turn out in support of Harper or Layton, knowing full well we won't be shoot if we dont.

You're right that Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot etc. held massive rallies for themselves, although I don't agree that people always attended out of fear. Hitler did many good things economically for the German people in his earlier years. One thing those dictators did not do however, is hand out AK-47 rifles and RPG's to their population for the purpose of defending themselves, like Ghadafi did.

[Barnes]

Hitler ended unemployment by spending massive amounts of money on a military projects contrary to previous treaties. His Gestapo destroyed all opposition and separated opponents and Jews from their property and he seized everything including all levels of government, civic organizations and all means of communication.

His foreign policy was to threaten other countries with ridiculous demands and threaten invasion if they did not appease the Nazis.

Please tell me, which of these are were good things for the German people cause to me, it seems like they all lead to the German people getting a s**t kicking for the second time.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

You're right that Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot etc. held massive rallies for themselves, although I don't agree that people always attended out of fear. Hitler did many good things economically for the German people in his earlier years. One thing those dictators did not do however, is hand out AK-47 rifles and RPG's to their population for the purpose of defending themselves, like Ghadafi did.

Well except for Hitler handing out rifles and anti tank weapons to preteen boys to defend Berlin in the waning days of WW2.

And Stalin not only had civilians used as fodder during the defense of Stalingrad but also had them taught them how to make their own anti tank explosives at a hideous cost.

Mao when he was in power never really had a war where he had to arm civilians.

Hitler might have done some things economically that worked, however for the most part the economic turnaround came when he decided that he wasn't going to pay millions of dollars a day in War reparations anymore.

My Grandmother went to see Hitler speak at one of his rallies and she said he was frighteningly hypnotic, but that he also knew that the lever of power was based around the simple message that the French and the Jews had stabbed an honorable Germany in the back.

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Hitler might have done some things economically that worked, however for the most part the economic turnaround came when he decided that he wasn't going to pay millions of dollars a day in War reparations anymore.

It was the same economic stimulus that worked for the Americans coming out of the Depression - massive re-armament - the huge military spending created jobs and economic activity...
That is one reason the German industrialists backed Hitler early on - they knew he'd spend a whole lot on steel, machinery, chemicals, etc, etc...

[CaptainCrunch]

Captain, .....I still have not seen any proof that Ghadafi was "butchering" un-armed civilian protestors. I'm not saying he is some nice guy, but Robert Gates himself said the reports were unconfirmed. If you could direct me to where there is proof of this I would appreciate....

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Fin...744/story.html

On Saturday night, the promise was put to the test. According to rebel sources in the capital and opposition groups abroad, including those in the Tunisian resort town of Djerba, "Operation Mermaid Dawn" - Mermaid is a nickname for Tripoli - was launched from the Ben Nabi Mosque on Sarim Street close to the heart of the city.
The rebels moved just after Iftar, the daily breaking of the daytime Ramadan fast, after incorrect rumours that ruler Col. Moammar Gadhafi had fled. A group of young men began chanting "God is Great," signifying the start of a new protest at the mosque, witnesses in Tripoli and rebels said.
Prayers were cancelled and all women sent home. The men then locked themselves in and began shouting anti-Gadhafi slogans. They used the mosque's loud speaker system, normally used to call people to prayer, to broadcast their chants across the city.
As shooting and explosions lit up the Tripoli night, Gadhafi's forces arrived and initially opened fire on the mosque with machine guns, also summoning reinforcements armed with anti aircraft guns mounted on pickup trucks. The men inside the mosque were unarmed.

Read more: http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Fin...#ixzz1Vy0S5Fks

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12517327

Doctor 'Braikah' in Benghazi describes 'a massacre' (Amateur video with this interview purportedly shows recent unrest in several parts of Libya)
Continue reading the main story Libya Crisis

• Battle for Tripoli Live
• Where is Col Gaddafi?
• Who might lead after Gaddafi?
• Tripoli resident: Wary of snipers

Details have emerged of huge casualty figures in the Libyan city of Benghazi, where troops have launched a brutal crackdown on protesters.
More than 200 people are known to have died, doctors say, with 900 injured.
The most bloody attacks were reported over the weekend, as funeral marches were said to have come under machine-gun and heavy weapons fire.
One doctor, speaking amid the sound of fresh gunfire on Sunday, told the BBC that "a real massacre" had happened.
Human Rights Watch says at least 173 people have been killed in Libya since demonstrations began on Wednesday.